Most important admissions factor for transfers:post high school gpa

Transfer Students
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<p>"Lost in the shuffle of university admission and graduation rates is a reality that those statistics often mask: about 1 in 3 students who enroll in either a four-year or two-year college will probably transfer at some point. This, to me, is the takeaway statistic in a report issued Tuesday by the National Association for College Admission Counseling.</p>

<p>For readers of The Choice, the most valuable information in the report may be the results of a survey asking college admissions officers what criteria they most prize in a transfer applicant. “The postsecondary grade point average is clearly the most important factor for transfer admission,” the researchers report."</p>

<p>College</a> Students’ Transfer Rate Is About 1 in 3 - The Choice Blog - NYTimes.com</p>

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<p>This is a generality, and not one that is likely to hold up when considering a student applying for a soph transfer to a selective school when they weren’t a competitive candidate as a fr applicant. And this is the situation we see all too frequently on this forum, especially at this time of year when students haven’t made it into their reach schools. If applicants believe that 1 semester of college will out weigh 4 years of HS when applying to schools with 2-15% transfer acceptance rates, they do so at their own risk, as it has been repeatedly advised on this forum that for soph transfers, HS record and test scores will be given the most consideration.</p>

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<p>I would first of all like to state how ridiculous it is that either of you have made such a large amount of posts on a forum for “college confidential.” I cannot believe how much the two of you obviously stake in the “college process” and likewise refuse to engage in any meaningful intellectual discussion about how incredibly harmful this entire culture is. I’m assuming this is because you are both moms who care nothing more than to see your children succeed at the extent of other children while simultaneously stroking your own ego and posting incorrect advice on topics. Unfortunately, the college process could only last while you still had a child so you had to further your vicarious needs by pretending to be a “helpful resource” and at the same time rudely dismissing children looking for some hope that they could apply to a good school (and of course steering them in the wrong direction at the same time!). I find it absolutely repulsive that adults who consider themselves “mothers” would invest so much time on a site for college students looking to gain self-esteem and discuss what is essentially rumors on how the college process works.</p>

<p>With that said, let’s discuss how horribly wrong both these statistics and entomom’s “advice” is. The statistics are completely meaningless. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time analyzing numbers and data will quickly realize that these statistics are naturally overgeneralizations. I’m glad you didn’t spend any time, “Northstar Mom,” in thinking through what you were doing before blindly posting something that the actual STUDENTS of this board (the ones this board is supposed to aid) will take for fact. I won’t delve into great detail why that statistic completely useless, but entomom seems to agree with me on that. I’m sure she is an intellectual of the highest order from a famed institution (and mind you, if she was that doesn’t mean she knows anything about the modern college process).</p>

<p>Now for entomom’s advice, "If applicants believe that 1 semester of college will out weigh 4 years of HS when applying to schools with 2-15% transfer acceptance rates, they do so at their own risk, as it has been repeatedly advised on this forum that for soph transfers, HS record and test scores will be given the most consideration. "</p>

<p>Brilliant. I must say you have an excellent attention to detail and legitimate care for doing anything other than baselessly dismissing others. Do you legitimately believe that schools with 2-15% transfer acceptance rates only care about grades? Please tell me. College admissions offices are not full of idiots. Do you really think that highschool grades and SAT scores are the most important thing in the college process? Are top tier schools just looking for another kid who did well in highschool? This is something that seems incredibly obvious, but for moms who have pushed their children to attain high grades to inflate their own self esteem, I guess I should lower the standards. </p>

<p>MIT, for instance, has learned that students who did extraordinary in highschool don’t necessarily do as well in college. It should be apparent why this is the case. Moms like you who have incessantly battered their children with their own psychological problems have, not surprisingly, incurred psychological problems on their children as well. No matter how well they did in highschool that has no bearing on their “natural intelligence” (which is another myth that I won’t get into here). Once these students are exposed to the rigor of a top tier school they will either not be able to handle it due to emotional and psychological damage, or they will manage to make it through like the rest of us. Socially and psychologically stable (to the limited extent possible) children make for much better candidates because they are willing to adapt and overcome adversity which they are sure to face at ANY rigorous program (and yes, you can find rigorous programs at schools that are not ivy). To simplify this, MIT purposefully chooses students who are interesting, capable of handling the coursework, and stable. They found that students who are normal, yet capable of handling hard classes, do far better on a whole than students who are overachievers who live to satisfy their parents needs. Inevitably some students who are the overachieving drones that you have helped create will manage to join the ranks of those at MIT, but that does not mean that MIT is necessarily looking for a high score. They are looking for kids who have passion, interest and willingness to succeed. None of those qualities have any direct correlation to highschool scores. The same goes for other top tier schools.</p>

<p>For sophomore transfers, highschool grades will obviously be CONSIDERED. Everything is considered, but they are certainly not more important than any of the factors above. The most important thing is always your unique place in their class, and your willingness to succeed. They also want a well rounded class of unique individuals because intellectual thought and progress requires different perspectives. Beyond this, your idea is just completely inherently flawed. Here’s an example. Let’s say in highschool you did okay on the SATs, ~600 in all areas. Overall, you got B+s as well. More specifically, you got a B- in Calculus and did only okay (B’s/B+'s) in math classes. You decide, when entering college, that you want to be an applied mathematician. You find out how interesting it is, and become very interested in mathematics. Your first year you take multivariable calculus and some other math class, let’s say differential equations. You try very hard, and find them interesting (as this is your new found passion) and you get an A- in both. Do you really think they’re going to care about your highschool math grades at this point? Really, do you? I can make up fifty other examples if you are still not convinced.</p>

<p>I understand that you may or may not have implied that everything I said above is false, but the way that you carelessly put forth the idea that “highschool grades are everything” is completely inconsiderate as students are going to jump to conclusions (especially because you are unable to speak in anything other than absolutes). I suppose I shouldn’t expect much from you because it’s not like you are actually here for the students. </p>

<p>I wish everyone who actually belongs here (students) goodluck in the process, and remember that if you have a true passion for something, you will absolutely get into at least one college of your choice (whether it be now, in transfer, or in grad school).</p>

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<p>I am posting in the best thread on CC.</p>

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<p>Holy cow, I second that.</p>

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<p>Wow, what passion! I believe you were just OWNED!</p>

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<p>I like the narcissistparent.</p>

<p>PASSION! All the way! :]</p>

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<p>good post, narcissistparent. I’m sick of some of the aholes here assuming community college students with a passion can’t maintain a 3.5 at a top school because they didn’t do well in HS and their 4.0 at a lesser school will necessarily decrease once they transfer. But it’s perfectly alright to assume that the HS valedictorians who get in right away are incapable of failure. But let’s not give tier 3 transfers or CC transfers the benefit of the doubt; the only reason they have a high GPA is because their 200 level classes wouldn’t even be 100 level classes at “real schools”.
Even though I spent a year at a tier 1 liberal arts school (not nearly the best LAC, but a decent school), I can relate a lot better to the CC/Tier 3 overachievers here than I can to people already transferring from top schools.
Some of the people here are outright discouraging and basically imply that we are incapable of transferring into a highly selective school (2-15% transfer acceptance rate) because of our HS record or low SAT scores. We can take 90 credits at a CC and pull a 3.8-4.0 GPA but we’ll still get rejected because a sophomore transfer from a flagship state school with a comparable GPA through 1/3 of the credit hours we’ve put in and a much better HS record/SAT scores is a MUCH more qualified candidate.
I’ve always wanted to attend a top school for my undergraduate studies, but recently I’ve started to give up on that dream, because of the people here who basically tell us not to waste our time applying because we don’t stand a chance unless we’ve done something extraordinary outside of the classroom.</p>

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<p>@narcissistparent - Um, ad hominem much? I’m not one to get involved, but this hostility is just totally unwarranted…</p>

<p>…which brings me to the *actual<a href=“read:%20reasonable-and-not-completely-wacked-out-or-hyperaggressive”>/i</a> subject of the thread. I think the article is a pretty validating piece. Flagel’s dissertation (or what I’ve read of it so far) also offers some valuable insight for prospective transfer applicants. Or the generally curious.</p>

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<p>whoa. totally unwarranted attack on 2 of the most helpful posters on CC. they’re realistic, whether you like it or not.</p>

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<p>I think what we can pull out of this thread: Northstarmom is way oversimplifying the decision process. She pulled out one statistic in a sea of other factors. Moreover, she is an adult who should be offering helpful advice instead of spewing one sentence absolutes on a mostly random process (AND THE DECISION PROCESS IS RANDOM). OBVIOUSLY grades are important, but it’s not the only important factor and no admission person is going to base the decision on just scores. The dissertation might be fine (and more nuanced), but Northstarmom choose to create a oversimplified blip of it.</p>

<p>I’ve also browsed through her posts and she, as well as the admin, is incredibly discouraging and mean. If X doesn’t have a certain GPA or SAT than X will never get in. She is an adult and shouldn’t be discouraging children 30 years younger. She should be encouraging ways for students to make up their past mistakes and improve their application INSTEAD of letting the thread hang with an absolute that says, ‘YOU NEED A 4.0 TO GET INTO X’. Kids will automatically assume that they will never get into a certain school so why should they even try?</p>

<p>I also hate how the hyper-competitive academic culture is never discussed. It so apparent that this culture breeds the misconception that self worth is equated to GPA and the name brand of a certain school.</p>

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<p>i have nothing but nice things to say about them, and i would be a perfect example of someone without a 4.0 (not even close) getting into an elite school after going to a mediocre state school. when i asked for help when i first joined, i had horrid SATs and only my HS gpa (2.7). they told me what to work on and didn’t say anything mean. they said it’d be hard (and it was), but didn’t say not to apply. they told me how to make it possible and voila - i did. but sometimes there are people who really have no shot and they’d be better off spending their time applying to schools that they actually have a shot at.</p>

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<p>For what it’s worth, the parents who have high post counts (the two mentioned here, off the top of my head, I can only think of bluedevilmike over at the pre-med forums) have them FOR A REASON. A lot of times, they help other parents or students figure things out that STUDENTS won’t know right off the bat, such as financial aid or yes, the transfer admissions process. It hardly seems fair to go back only 100 or so posts out of a career of thousands of posts and then make some sort of statement about who they are are people. It seems incredibly short sighted.</p>

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<p>The point is applied only to sophomore transfer. A freshman in comparison to a sophomore would likely not take a class that he or she is deeply interested in, especially if the person did not get into the school they wanted because of bad high school grades. There is an inherent cumulative effect. A bad high school student is not going to turn around and become a competitive transfer applicant in 1 semester. It is better to focus on the fact that the high school record is just as important as the college record for sophomore transfers than to focus on the impractical side of things. Obviously the former is less inspirational but the statement itself is realistic and therefore warranted.</p>

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<p>What? A reasonable person can assume that statistically a 4.0 student will do better than a 3.5 student. Nobody is saying that ECs do not matter, or that a 3.5 high school student should not attempt to transfer. What has been said is that a 4.0 in one college semester alone will not outweigh a 3.5 in 4 years of high school, period. You can’t use reasoning or philosophy to fight this argument. It is what it is. If you do not think so, show contrary evidence in the form of statistics of firsthand information. We are simply isolating the issue at hand, which is GPA and the two distinct realms in which it is made, to discuss a point. I am sure both northstarmom and entomom acknowledge that ECs are very important.</p>

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<p>So how do you think you got in? Judging strictly by the posts I’ve read of you, you’ve only mentioned that your GPA went up since high school, but never mentioned the ECs (which I would assume were a more important factor since you did not achieve a 4.0 while likely hundreds of other kids applying to Ivys did). If I had not been informed I, by a small but veritable chance, might have assumed that a better GPA in college was enough, or even mildly competitive. I assume you likely had an impressive EC or otherwise an excuse for your low GPA in high school. If so, mentioning only the GPA gives prospective transfers and college students false hope. This is the flaw in many of the threads I see on this forum–those concerning “success” and “inspirational” stories that only mention one’s innate drive to do better and the academics and the personal stories as opposed to the things that actually matter objectively: the ECs one put in the application, where they found the opportunities to do them, how they got such an impressive letter of recommendation, etc. Such talk of impractical factors would encourage a student to focus on the things they actually have control over, like their GPA, and to half-ass the things they never learned how to do, like find an impressive activity or otherwise through which they can show depth and character.</p>

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<p>That was an interesting and provocative post. I am curious as to your background and experience in the college process. Can you please cite some sources for your assertions concerning the statistics being “completely useless”? Beyond your obvious passion about this topic, what do you recommend for potential transfer students who were not overachievers in high school but would like to move up to an upper-level university? I’d like to encourage these kids to aim high but I don’t see much point in their paying a lot of application fees to schools who won’t even give them serious consideration.</p>

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<p>“You can’t use reasoning or philosophy to fight this argument.”
I’m glad you acknowledge that people can’t use reason to convince you. Why do you assume that a 4.0 will not negate a 3.5? You are ignoring tons of factors. Plus, narcissistparent is just opposed to the heavily emphasis CC places on grades during the admissions process. Obviously, grades are important. However, CC overemphasizes their importance. Reading some of the posts here disgust me. I’ve seen a lot of posts that dogmatically state that you NEED X and Y to get into Z school. This is not the case. </p>

<p>In reality, you have just as much chance as anyone else. People try to put some probability (or ‘chances’) on it, but forget that the people reading your application at these elite schools are HUMAN BEINGS. It isn’t a computer program that determines your status through a roll of the die. A person who has a 4.0 will not automatically receive a 40% chance and the person with a 3.5 a 20% chance. We say it’s random because of the human factor. If the admissions team happens to like you, then you’re in. If they don’t believe you’re unique enough, aren’t able to handle the work load or don’t want another typical 4.0 student, then they reject you.</p>

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<p>If these ad hominem attacks were aimed at any other members, I’d be editing and giving infractions, but I think NSM and I can deal with it. And I’d normally call out posters who use quotation marks for words that were never written or for deleting parts of comments to suit their POV. But truthfully, I doubt it would make an impact on anyone, so believe who and what you want, go for it, I’ve got no skin in this game.</p>

<p>Oh, and np, a 1 post member, how courageous of you :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>@Atomspatz: ad hominem much – I second that motion.</p>

<p>Quite frankly, and despite the article and/or the beleaguering opinions of others, everyone wants to get their rocks off. Case-in-point: the one-post-wonder.</p>

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<p>I don’t want to speak for entomom, but it seems that she was speaking in terms of general trends and merely echoes common wisdom regarding sophomore transfers: Your postsecondary grades are important, but will likely not mitigate a weak high school record. How is this a problematic statement? There are exceptions to this as there are to any admissions scenario (and of course she was not implying that there cannot exist a situation to the contrary or that adcoms ignore other factors), but her advice was both reasonable and sensible, and it applies to most prospective students. </p>

<p>To narcissistparent: </p>

<p>You asked [rhetorically], “Do you really think that highschool grades and SAT scores are the most important thing in the college process?” and the answer is, for the vast majority of applicants who have not cured cancer or do not have a parent in the White House, an unequivocal yes. (The numbers really don’t lie - check out MIT’s 25th/75th percentile math scores for the SAT/ACT; you shouldn’t be surprised that the lower boundary is so high.) </p>

<p>No one is suggesting that there aren’t other important factors (or even mitigating factors, for that matter), but for college admissions, grades and test scores are, for most applicants, the most important factors in their success/failure in admissions. Again, there are of course rare exceptions and anomalies, which is why entomom never once said that the OP was totally wrong or entirely off base, just that her statement was “not likely to hold up” across the board and therefore [justifiably] vulnerable to criticism. </p>

<p>You seem to equate high scores/grades/achievement with cruel parenting and refer to those students as “drones,” but there are plenty of creative, motivated, passionate students who also happen to take their classes and standardized tests very seriously. I agree that passion is important, but only when that passion has direction and is substantiated by a solid work ethic and capacity to produce; qualities that are often (though perhaps not always) reflected by grades and test scores. I admire your optimism in your last statement, but the idea that a true passion for something alone will necessarily result in successful admission to at least one school of the applicant’s choice is just demonstrably false and frankly naive. </p>

<p>I realize that CC isn’t always the most encouraging place and that people (myself included) can be a little b*tchy sometimes, but honestly, I think it’s pretty unfair to presume that the OP or entomom are here for reasons other than to genuinely help people and address real student issues. There may be some “tough love” or disputes over the finer points of the admissions process, but this site is legitimately helpful to many prospective applicants and was a great (and free!) tool for me when I applied. </p>

<p>Moreover, I second entomom’s advice.</p>

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<p>I am posting just to say that I am a 22 year old community college transfer with a 3.1 GPA who was just accepted into Northeastern University, proof that it is NOT all about your post secondary GPA.</p>