I’m a bit concerned about my S. He has graduated with a BA in geology from a top 40 LAC with a decent GPA, great GRE scores, excellent LORs, but no research experience or internships. He devoted a lot of time in undergrad to leadership roles in ECs that graduate schools apparently don’t care about. He wants to pursue a PhD eventually but has decided to apply for an MS first as a way to gain experience in research and make himself a better PhD applicant. I see his point and agree, but he is applying to programs at unranked universities, his rational being that he’s more likely to get funding from one of these and that he plans on being the big fish in a small pond.
So the question that keeps me awake at night is: will a top student in an unremarkable school have as good a chance of getting into competitive PhD programs as one from a better respected institution? Or would he be better off taking a year off, working to enhance his resume, and then applying to MS programs at more prestigious schools?
A friend of mine received an MS in Geology an unranked school and went on to get a PhD from Cornell, if that is any consolation. Is your son applying to to programs at selective universities as will as unranked ones? Seems like it can’t hurt to apply to both. In general, it sounds to me like he will be a successful individual no matter which path he takes. I have to remind myself that my own 22 year old is hard working and he may not make the same choices I would, but I have to respect the path he is taking, not try to micromanage him, and not lose sleep over this type of thing.
Pootie, thanks for that anecdote, learning of your friend’s experience IS consoling. I know it’s well past the time to attempt to steer the ship, and I try to keep my mouth shut unless directly asked for my opinion, but neither his father or I have experience with academia at this level, so it’s very hard to give good advice when asked. Instead of voicing all my concerns to him, I find asking for opinions from you all on CC helps me to put the issues in perspective. I think I’ll buy some melatonin for the sleepless nights.
And you did ask a question that I failed to answer. No, he’s decided not to apply to more selective programs because after contacting several professors who are overseeing research projects he was excited about, and being told that the funding was not there to take on new MS students, he got very disheartened. He’s gotten more enthusiastic responses from the less selective programs.
This is not surprising because at the schools with Ph.D. programs, not all M.S. students get funding. If funds are limited, they might reserve them for Ph.D. students.
For a competitive PhD program in the sciences, there already exists a large pool of students directly from undergrad with research experience, such as REU’s etc. vying for a few spots. A highly ranked program’s preference is for a top undergrad and your son will find similar competition when he applies, even with a Master’s. Unless he can publish and distinguish himself somehow in the lower-tier MS program , the competition is still there (and two years younger). He may want to find out from the PhD program directors if his strategy is a good one. Also, the competitive programs look for students who may have gotten an MS due to economic reasons or coming from a URM background. Hooks are a big thing in the PhD science world, esp. at top universities.
There are a lot of excellent flagship state universities which have ranked geology graduate programs, but may not be in the top 10 or whatever, but still provide a solid degree. They may be a better target for a PhD program directly from undergrad. I do not know what the job market is like for PhD geologists - he should also find that out, to see what opportunities exist afterward.
Encourage him to consider whether he even needs a PhD. You can get some pretty decent job offers with just a BS, and a MS is typically a terminal degree for geology. If he wants to go into research or academia, however, a PhD would be necessary. Though geology is a relatively small field, the US underproduces geology graduates, so job prospects are considerably better than in most of the other sciences.
People often come to geology a lot later than other STEM fields, mostly due to the deplorable way earth science is taught (or not taught, rather) in high school. Most MS programs in geology have a pretty eclectic array of students (majored in the other sciences or even further afield), so I would definitely NOT count out selective MS programs given his academic background.
I second mathprof’s recommendation of state flagships, which often fund MS students through teaching assistantships or research assistantships.
He should also check out Canada, which has some great options for geology.
Yes, and people do it all the time. Nevertheless, I’d encourage applying to grad programs that vary in selectivity.
Many schools excel in a particular subdiscipline. The programs at Wyoming and Kansas are not ranked very high overall, for example, but they’re some of the best for paleontology. The same goes for URI (geological oceanography), Nevada-Reno (hydrology), U Alaska and Oregon State (glaciology and volcanology), Boston U (geoarchaeology), etc.
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My training in earth science has primarily been in oceanography and remote sensing, so I can only recommend the big name programs like Arizona and Penn State. His undergraduate professors should be able to point him in the right direction.
Bopambo - you noted --“He has graduated with a BA in geology from a top 40 LAC with a decent GPA, great GRE scores, excellent LORs, but no research experience or internships. He devoted a lot of time in undergrad to leadership roles in ECs that graduate schools apparently don’t care about.”
I believe our sons were at the same LAC. My son is still there and I am just wondering which ECs it turns out the grad schools don’t care about. He still has some time left before he graduates so perhaps he can reassess where he wants to spend the time he has to devote to extra curricular activities. (Currently he spends many hours volunteering in the community. To me that seems like a good use of his out of class hours but I am not on a grad school admission committee )
@Themommymommy, if your son’s goal is an academic/research-based program (like an MS in geology or a PhD), then the only extracurriculars that matter are research-related ones. Research experience matters; being president of Golden Key or Model UN does not. (Those things might matter more for professional programs, like MBAs or MPAs).
Your son should volunteer because he wants to, and not because he thinks it will look a certain way on his application. Truth be told, the graduate professors won’t care either way whether he volunteers extensively (it might pique their interest if he volunteers to teach earth sciences to elementary school kids or judges science fairs or something, but it’s not going to make any significant difference in his admission). But that doesn’t mean that he should stop - I also love volunteering and spent many hours volunteering, and I continued to do so in graduate school and in my postdoc.
(When the volunteering DID help me was on my NSF application. They ask about “broader impacts” and I had spent a lot of time volunteering in elementary school classrooms with African American children and tutoring the SAT and GRE; I spun it into a deep interest in promoting the next generation of scientists, which is true.)
Thanks for your answer Juliet. it is a relief to know that while it may not be a huge help it wouldnt be considered to be a bad use of his time. My son really likes to volunteer in the small community where he goes to school. I like that he does it too. I would just feel terrible if it turned out to be a negative for him to have spent his time doing that rather than pursuing some other more academic or economic type activity. The research related extracurriculars are a little difficult to come by at his school due to its size and remote location. But I suppose that is what summers are for.
Juliet’s answer is right on. There ARE research opportunities at our sons’ college, they are being supervised by the faculty, and students can, and do, become involved. Unfortunately, the year my son was interested in participating in one of his professor’s ongoing projects, her funds were pulled because of the government sequester. There were other projects going on but he wasn’t interested in the type of geology being researched, big mistake! Some of his classmates were able to present their research at the GSA meeting in Vancouver, BC this Fall, quite a resume booster!
It appears that the most competitive MS geology programs aren’t really interested in prospective students if there isn’t research experience, or at least intern positions, on the resume. If a student is applying directly to a PhD program, research seems to be essential. Advise your son to speak to his professors about getting into a research project and writing a thesis about it his senior year .
As far as those other extracurricular pursuits are concerned, Juliet makes another good point, they will add greatly to the resume for organizations looking beyond the narrow confines of academia. My son has decided to apply to a Masters International program that combines an MS with a 2 year stint in the Peace Corp. His leadership experience in college organizations, volunteer involvement in the community and outdoor skill set will look desirable on the Peace Corp application.
Thanks for your advice Bopambo. My son luckily has several semsters left to get in research either at school or over the summer. Your son’s plan sounds really interesting and exciting. I wish him good luck in his application as well as safe and happy traveling.
mommy2, thanks! If your son’s GPA is high enough he can take part in summer research through the Keck Geology Consortium: http://www.keckgeology.org/
His academic advisor can steer him in the right direction. I hope he enjoys the rest of his time there!