<p>Ok..instead of making generalizations like this: "people who don't want to be challenged go to state", how about you ask someone like me who's a freshman at MSU?</p>
<p>I applied to U of M last year, was deferred, waitlisted and rejected and now I'm here. Yes, there are people who party here, but also, everytime I go to the library or in the study lounge in my hall, I always see people studying. I'm very offended by that statement. MSU's undergrad is a lot better than UM's (my sis went to UM so I know) and a lot of professors and TA's here care about every student.</p>
<p>Wow...you are going to trust Playboy's opinon (a very derogatory and offensive magazine) over a student's? </p>
<p>I will elaborate more...but I gotta go see my professor because I made an appointment. Feel free to post or shoot me a PM. I'll be more than happy to answer anyone's questions.</p>
<p>Thanks, Alexandre and hoedown, for bringing this back to a more rational discussion from across the great divide. The passions are obviously high when any MSU vs UM discussion surfaces and rationality often goes out the window, as it has here. Stereotypes are lousy from either side and smurfette, I wouldn't make the blanket statement that MSU is ‘a lot better’ undergrad school than UM, for while the UM stereotype is that its a graduate oriented that doesn't care about undergrads, there are many excellent undergrad opportunities there – moreso than its rival Berkeley, imho. It depends on which program your talking about… I would say, it appears MSU, more than most public research universities, has relied more on undergrad programs to boost its reputation. UM's obviously a higher profile U nationally with students, on avg, who have higher stats going in than MSU. But MSU is prestigious in its own right, with many, many challenging and there are plenty of valid reasons why many extremely bright students would choose MSU over UM; and many do.</p>
<p>The UM-MSU rivalry is as intense as any I’m aware of; this is both fun as well as negative, at times. Michigan is a rare state to have created 2 large public Us of this caliber.</p>
<p>Quincy...I didn't mean to say that...I was in a hurry to go see my prof. And you are 100% right in your post above. </p>
<p>I just don't like being categorized as the drunken girl who never studies because of our reputation. It makes me so angry because I know that UM parties, but doesn't advertise it.</p>
<p>And I think I'm better off here because the professors here aren't pushy with their views (UM is pretty liberal) and people here are more outgoing and friendly. Also, I don't feel like a number here...</p>
<p>That's one of the more intriguing things I've heard about MSU (and not just from you). Some students who choose MSU have stated that one reason is that U-M is "too big" or "too impersonal" or they would be "just a number."</p>
<p>Yet MSU is larger. </p>
<p>I'm wondering how much of that is the way U-M communicates to prospective students, vs. some kind of real difference in student experience. </p>
<p>In my psych class of 569 students, my professor knows my name. I have two classes where there's about 30 students and one class with 200. I don't feel like a number here...all of my professors know my name.</p>
<p>Everyone is friendly here, the professors are more than willing to help you (at least mine)..and the scenery here is stunning. </p>
<p>I don't know why everyone at UM feels like they are a number (maybe because the professors are renowned perhaps and feel that they don't have to connect with students perhaps?) and my sis was surprised that my professors know who I am. I feel that at MSU everyone is laid back and down to earth, whereas UM, people are so competitive when it comes to grades IMO. I'm not trying to put down anyone...(why would I cross into Wolverine territory?) I'm just trying to give the Wolverines, the Spartan perspective. :D</p>
<p>Is it that you are one of the few really dedicated students that your psych prof knows your name?</p>
<p>I think you really have to judge on a case by case basis. At Michigan, my largest class is great books, and even then i have a discussion section taught by a GSI of about 20 kids... and the GSI is far from under qualified: this is the 3rd country and language she has taught the works in. The rest of my classes are 20, 20, and 6.</p>
<p>I think it's a stretch to say "EVERYONE" feels like a number. What I stated was that this is a common refrain from people who refuse UM (those who have never been here as a student)--they think that they will feel like a number. This is not the same as the U-M students themselves claiming that that they feel like a number. What's the source of your belief that everyone feels this way?</p>
<p>well all my friends who attend UM feel this way and teachers have told me this time and time again...and I didn't refuse U of M...I wanted to go there...</p>
<p>I really don't know why prospective students would say that, since I am not at U of M. I think it's that high school teachers create this fear in students. I've had so many teachers tell me that I will be a number to the professor (when I was waiting on Umich's decison) when in fact I don't feel that way at all (here at least.). </p>
<p>As for the psych prof, I am dedicated to the class, but I know of some professors who will have your name memorized (over 200 students!) because they thought it was important for them to know a student's name. </p>
<p>And is a GSI similar to a TA? We don't call them GSI's, just TA's so I'm a little confused..lol</p>
<p>Smurfette, if your friends are taking Freshman classes, they will probably feel like a number. It is hard not to feel like a number when you have over 100 students in the class with you, even if your professor knows you by name. But most students at Michigan do not take many Freshman classes. I personally took only 5 or 6 (out of 40+ classes I took) during my entire 4 years. Those were generally large classes, well over 100 students. In 2 of those classes, the profs new all of their students' names. In the other 3 or 4 classes, they didn't. But in the remaining 35+ classes I took, my profs almost always knew all of their students by name.</p>
<p>thanks for enlightening me on that Alexandre! :) For some odd reason, I don't feel like a number (although my prof knows my name and we actually had a conversation for more than five minutes!) even on the first week of class. I was amazed to see how many students were in my hall for psych. (at the time there were 578 now it's 569) but I never felt like a number when my prof didn't know me (maybe it was because I sit in the very front row rather than in the back seeing all of the rows in front of me).</p>
<p>GSI = Graduate Student Instructor... They're all grad students. The only ones whp can become GSIs as undergrads are those who are complete geniuses in their fields.</p>
<p>I don't think undergrads ever function as GSIs, per se. One exception is the Honors math sequence, where the course grader also runs an optional weekly discussion section to cover interesting topics or proofs that don't quite merit being an actual part of class. There are also some 1-credit Honors seminars for freshmen that are taught by Honors seniors in some topic they find interesting. But I have wondered whether or not they'd let me run a section of Calc I my junior/senior year...</p>
<p>Smurfette, I think part of the difference in opinion at MSU and Michigan has to do with perception and expectations. I think Michigan students, on average, may be more demanding....high maintenance if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>As for GSI's, I have only had 6 or 7 during my entire experience at Michigan and none of them were undergrads. They were mostly 3rd or 4th year graduate students and with the exception of just one, they were all excellent discussion leaders.</p>
<p>hoedown, as to your UM/impersonal perception Q, I think Alexandre's on to something, but I'd take a different twist. I've had a number of friends who went to UM and their accounts, supplemented my visiting them there and accounts I've read over time from websites and student guides indicates people think UM has a 'sink or swim' mindset; that there are great profs and facilities there, but throw the students into the hopper and make them seek it for themselves in a kind of survival of the fittest mentality; that UM students should be resourceful enough to deal with it. Ive read comments from UM faculty and administrators to the effect that there is no hand-holding at UM; certainly no in loco parentis. Ive heard/read that this extends to the shortage of dorm rooms (although Ive read UMs slated to build a new one on Central Campus) and one must enter a room lottery after freshman year if you want to remain on campus. I understand UM historically was slow to build dorms and that a majority of students must live off campus with those non-Greeks fending for themselves in Ann Arbors expensive rental market. Ive read some parents on the MSU CC board who say they felt their Ss or Ds, although bright, were not particularly wanted by UM officials when they visited which, they felt, was the reverse of MSU. </p>
<p>I do know at MSU the administration prides itself on being personable with parents and students. Generally, their pretty successful but frankly Ive run into a few jerks now and again as one would expect in a 45K student school. MSU has also tried to use its dorms as sort of a shield against impersonality, with practically all of the larger, more modern (as in the 1960s) dorms all have classrooms and faculty offices in them and are grouped in pseudo quads or sub-campuses. I know, in my freshman-thru-junior years I lived in dorms where I either had classes (all of which were the non-theater/overhead projector variety), prof, offices or both which did make this huge school seem more accessible. And these experiences, called living learning centers are outside the 2 (soon to be 3) 4-year residential colleges: James Madison & Lyman Briggs -- which is technically dubbed a school but for all intents and purposes is a college. In these aspects, MSU has done a lot more than most big schools to try and break itself down into smaller, more manageable parts to its undergrads.</p>
<p>One other thing is that while MSU is certainly an AAU research university, and there were some entry-level classes where I had some GSIs (we just called them TAs in the 80s), grad students seemed rather invisible at State; certainly in the background. My inkling is that at UM grad/professional students are more visible, if for no other reason you have a massive medical and law complexes right in the core of Central Campus. MSU, on the other hand, has relatively young medical schools at the edge of campus with no on-campus teaching hospital. MSUs affiliation/absorption of the former Detroit College of Law is barely a decade old whereas UMs medial and law programs are ancient.</p>
<p>Quincy, I think your post was very insightful.</p>
<p>For those who asked, MSU's freshman class is about 8900, while Michigan's is 5400. MSU has 35,000 undergrads to U-M's 25,500. Overall MSU has 45,000 students or so, and U-M just cracked the 40,000 mark this year.</p>
<p>forgiven, why do you so ardently defend UM, when you are looking to transfer after just one year here?</p>
<p>Honestly, I can't see why anyone would even consider transferring. This place is just absolutely amazing, one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life.</p>