<p>halflolum - I agree that some are easier than the common ap, some dont even require an essay at all. I am sure my D will be able to write 2-3 essays and tweak them for each application, but it’s still a lot of organizing and retyping details into each form. When applying to 17-20 schools, no matter which way you look at it, it is a lot of work.</p>
<p>My spreadsheet description (I have several tabs all on the same spreadsheet, most of which have links to various pages of school websites):</p>
<p>Tab 1 - Simple List of schools she plans to apply to, no details (this often changes)
Tab 2 & 3 (I split the list between audition- and non-audition schools) - General school details - Location; Driving distance; Combined cost for tuition room & board; # Undergrads; degree program name and any highlights about the school; Mid 50% for ACT; description of academic likelihood (target/safety/reach)
Tab 4 - Audition Details - Songs, Monologue, Dance audition details, audition dates or if they go to Unifieds, misc extra notes
Tab 5 - Academic Application - Essay requirements, Supplemental Requirements, Early/Priority Dates
Tab 6 - Eliminated Schools - Long list of school which have been eliminated and short answer as to why. Very helpful.</p>
<p>In my opinion, nobody needs to apply to 17-20 schools as referenced in the post above. If a list is appropriate to the student’s qualifications and well balanced, there is no need to have this many. In fact, the efforts per application and showing interest in each school may be diluted. It is also a lot of auditions to fit in. And if the student is lucky enough to get into a bunch of them, a lot of schools to visit. A student would be more focused on the decision if the list were narrowed further, rather than having to focus in on choosing next spring in a matter of weeks. </p>
<p>I have worked with many college applicants pursuing this field and none applied to this many schools. Typical lists seem to range from 8 to 14 schools. My own kid applied to 8 colleges in all for musical theater. I think 10-12 is a ballpark that fits most kids, except for particular circumstances. For example, an applicant primarily interested in a BFA in MT, might have a range of BFA programs that total 10 and 2 non-audition programs for a list of 12 schools. A student who is undecided between a BFA and a BA, might have 7 BFAs and 7 BAs for a total of 14. For a student who just wants a BA, a total of 10 BA schools should do it. Again, individual cases may warrant variations of these general ballpark figures. Still, I can’t think of anyone needing more than 14 schools.</p>
<p>Soozievt - I appreciate the insight your experience offers and it prompted me to analyze my list again. I agree 20 schools is excessive. I think of our list as a work in progress as there will surely still be further additions and eliminations. There are currently 3 safety schools on her list. Although I think she would be fine with 2, D wants to have options if she is unsuccessful at the auditions. A wise choice in my opinion. Of the remaining 13, three are pre-screen schools. I think we will be able to hold off on applying to 2-3 of the other 13 schools until we know if she makes it thru the pre-screens. If she doesn’t get thru the pre-screens, she may apply to or try to walk in to those 2-3 alternate schools at Unifieds if there is time. So at the moment: 3 safeties, 10 actual applications, 3 possible walk-ins or further applications if pre-screens are unsuccessful. Not too crazy - and this is before going through the list with MTCA.</p>
<p>Our list will undoubtedly be shortened as well. For example, there was one school my D visited that she thought she would love, and came out saying she did not want to apply there. It is still on our big list, but as the summer proceeds and she has time to mull it over, it will likely come off. A few will likely drop off simply b/c of scheduling conflicts (we could not get to auditions and they do not come to Unifieds). Several are pre-screens, and she may not get past those to the audition stage. Two schools are just send a DVD, no in person audition, and many of them either take the Common App or have essay questions so similar to the Common App that she will not have to change her essay much at all (if at all). My D is so conscientious that she would NEVER do anything that doesn’t meet her exacting standards. In other words, we will not apply anyplace half-heartedly. So, ultimately, her list will probably be around 15 or 16 schools, which I do not think is excessive in this extremely competitive environment.</p>
<p>monkey, I agree it is so extremely competitive! </p>
<p>I think, however, that for someone who primarily wants a BFA in MT, there is no need to have more than 12 at most on the list and then 2 non-audition safeties for a maximum of 14. I know this may sound harsh, but if a student doesn’t get into any of the 12 BFAs on their list, either their list was not appropriate to their qualifications, not well balanced in terms of academic and artistic selectivity, or the candidate was truly not competitive for BFA in MT programs. That is just my view. I have only had one student who wanted a BFA and got into none of her BFAs (but got into four BAs and is now at Muhlenberg) and she was borderline artistically competitive, though academically just fine. Her outcome was not a huge surprise. For students who I believe are TRULY artistically competitive, they always get into one or more BFAs. Getting an assessment of one’s artistic and academic “competitiveness” is a good thing. For some students, no matter how many BFAs they put on the list, they may not get into any. For those who are true contenders, even though it is highly competitive, they should not be shut out and do not need more than 12 BFAs on the list at MOST to obtain an acceptance (IF the list is appropriate to their academic and artistic qualifications and well balanced). </p>
<p>WHICH schools are on the list is critical. No two kids should have the same list. I have seen some have very unrealistic lists in light of their academic and artistic qualifications or else unbalanced lists in terms of a range of selectivity. So, it is not just about HOW MANY colleges are on the list, but a matter of the right list for each applicant. My kid’s list was 8 schools but it worked for her. That list may not be the right one for another kid. Adding more and more schools doesn’t necessarily increase the odds. Having the right schools on the list is quite important.</p>
<p>By the way, my comments are not directed at you or your daughter’s list, but just general thoughts in response to how competitive it is out there!</p>
<p>So soozie, my question would be how one knows which schools are the ones where a student is artistically vs. academically qualified? My daughter, for example, will pretty much get into any school she wants based on academics (maybe would be on the borderline for schools like Northwestern or U Mich). But if you’re going to make a list based on artisitic qualifications how do you make such a list, if it will be the people judging your auditions that will make that determination? Our approach is that we are using a local coach who is in the business, knows the schools and our daughter well, and has had good success placing other local students into good programs. I’d be interested in your thoughts on how to approach this.</p>
<p>Jeffandann…for the moment, I just have time to give a short broader response. </p>
<p>First to this:
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<p>I just think I need to qualify that for others reading here. It is great that your D has very strong academics. My daughters did as well. However, for colleges that have very low acceptance rates (I’m not talking of the BFA program, but the universities themselves), even if one’s “stats” are in the ballpark for that college, the odds can still be very chancy due to low acceptance rates. For example, this is true for anyone at Northwestern. It would not be a safety sure bet for anyone. It may be match/ballpark odds for some and a reach for others. But given their low admit rate, one cannot say that their kid could get into any school. I have a kid who applied to schools like Yale, Brown, Penn, Princeton. She had excellent qualifications, but so do most who apply. When a college accepts 20% or less (some of these schools have acceptance rates in the single digits!), the odds then are “reach odds,” and not because the student’s stats make it a reach but the acceptance rate MUST be taken into account when determining reach, match, safety, not just one’s stats. Now, granted, many BFA in MT programs are not located in academically highly selective schools, but some are still quite competitive academically such as NYU, UMich, Northwestern (not a BFA), etc. and so they are not a sure bet academically even for our very academically strong students. Just wanted to point that out, even though your D likely is OK on the academic front for most BFA schools, but there are a few that are NOT a sure bet academically speaking. Also, the most academically selective schools go beyond simply GPA, class rank, and SAT/ACT scores since they have more candidates with who meet those standards and so it is the overall application with many factors considered. </p>
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<p>First, it is true that not only are auditions quite subjective, the acceptance rates at most BFA in MT programs are anywhere from 2-9% roughly speaking. So, even if a student has what it takes to get in, many artistically qualified kids will still get some rejections. And it is hard to determine artistically which schools are reach, match, safety (but that can be determined for the academic end of the process and should be also taken into account to build an academically balanced college list). So, how to balance a list artistically speaking???</p>
<p>While most programs have similarly low acceptance rates, I believe that SOME BFA in MT programs have better odds than some others, even if not based on the acceptance rates. Some programs are more well known than others and attract overall a more concentrated and competitive talent pool. Or else when acceptances roll in, the most talented kids may take offers at the the most competitive programs leaving other programs for other talented kids. And at the risk of offending some people, I’ll give a rough example (please don’t shoot me)…for instance, even if all these schools have extremely low BFA acceptance rates, I think generally speaking, it is harder to get into CMU, CCM, UMich, NYU, and BOCO than it is to get into UArts, Marymount Manhattan, Point Park, Coastal Carolina, Montclair, Rider, Hartt, or Roosevelt. So, a list of BFA programs should balance the more competitive programs with ones that are still very hard to get into but where the odds are better due to the talent pool overall. Then, perhaps mix in some audition based BA programs which are also reachy odds but not typically as difficult odds are the BFAs, and so programs like Wagner, American, James Madison, etc. are considerations to balance a BFA list. Then, of course two non-audition schools that are academic safeties are needed. Some may want BA options in addition to that which are not academic safeties such as Northwestern or USC. Now, that is just GENERALLY SPEAKING when discussing balancing a list. </p>
<p>But what is crucial is that the list be appropriate to each candidate. My kid’s list should not look like some other kid’s list necessarily! Here is where it really helps to have an assessment of the student’s academic and artistic qualifications. A college counselor might be able to evaluate the academic competitiveness. There are ways to determine one’s artistic competitiveness by several “methods.” One would be how the student has fared in competitive casting pools in the region and nationally and in any adjudications such as on a state or national level. They also can self evaluate their talent against those they know who have gained entrance to competitive BFA programs. Further, getting an assessment from voice/acting/dance teachers and/or coaches who have experience with students who have gained entrance to BFA in MT programs would really help to obtain. Attending summer programs that draw from a national talent pool is another way to get an idea of how one sort of matches up with the talent out there (can’t rely on just the talent pool at school). All these things will help to craft an appropriate list for each candidate. One thing I sometimes see on this forum is kids or parents asking about schools that offer MT and just making a list of schools they like without taking into consideration one’s academic and artistic qualifications and so building an appropriate and balanced list is a HUGE part, of the eventual results. The wrong list can be a problem. </p>
<p>That said, this is FAR from an exact science. When there are acceptance rates of like 5% to MT programs, even qualified kids will get some rejections! And other factors beyond one’s control such as type play a part! And so we’ll see kids who got accepted by NYU/Tisch but rejected by UArts, accepted by CCM but rejected by Syracuse, accepted by UMich but rejected by Penn State, accepted to NYU but rejected by Emerson (these are ALL kids I know!!). So, even though some programs are more competitive than others, the results do not always follow suit. So, yes, this is challenging. Still, generally speaking some schools are harder to get into than others and so balancing the list that way is important, even though it is not exact. </p>
<p>Hope that helps some. Seems like you are going about things quite well!</p>
<p>Beyond the degree and consideration of artistic and academic fit the question of: what are you looking for in a school environment? My daughter cared a lot about size, location, school type (college vs. conservatory) and there was no way we could have possibly found 17 – 20 schools that had what she wanted or at least had enough of what she wanted to apply. She lopped of entire states, parts of the country, most straight conservatory programs and most rural locations. </p>
<p>Even if the only thing you care about is that the school offers an MT degree (BFA or BA), the law of diminishing returns kicks in once you get past a dozen or so.</p>
<p>I agree that besides building a list appropriate to one’s academic and artistic qualifications and balancing it in terms of odds, there is the ESSENTIAL aspect of finding schools that meet the student’s selection criteria and are a good fit!! Sooooo important! I didn’t address that as I was responding to questions about qualifications and balancing the list. But finding schools that meet what a student wants in a program and in a college is what it really is all about and an applicant should be able to articulate very specifically why each school meets what they want in a college. If they can’t do that, the college likely should not be on the list. Know your schools. It is not enough that it offers a MT program or is supposedly a very good program. Example, CCM has an excellent reputation and my D did not put it on her list as it did not meet her own selection criteria. Fit cannot be understated!</p>
<p>Agree with this too. I know this may sound harsh but if a candidate has 12 schools on the list and does not get into any of them, I don’t think the odds improve by adding more. It means the list was not appropriate to the candidate or well balanced in terms of odds. The student may not be a contender for a BFA program. Yes, the odds at each program are really tough odds, but I have never seen a true contender who is competitive for BFA admissions totally shut out. Those who are shut out often are not quite in the ballpark to get into such competitive programs. A true contender should have at least one acceptance with 10 BFA’s on the list and 2 non-audition BAs, for example and if not, the list wasn’t the right list or the applicant is not competitive enough for such programs. Adding five more schools after the first 12 or so, isn’t going to necessarily make a difference. I really have not met anyone needing more than 14 at most and that includes the non-audition safeties.</p>
<p>Boy, y’all are really serious with all the spreadsheets and data. I just list the schools with my d and we will go from there. She has had a voice teacher for 4 years now. She is in theater at school and on the drill team. The drill team practices every day at 6:57 am during the school year. We will start working on monologues in August and songs with her voice teacher also. I’m sure she will have no problem with the dance as being a member of the drill team they are constantly learning choreography. I could post some videos of her in performances. I don’t know if that would be proper protocol for this forum. Any constructive criticism would be nice. Y’all have a nice day!</p>
<p>HNHDAD, it would be interesting to see what kind of choreography is done in your D’s drill team. I’m not even sure what a drill team is, or how much actual dance they really do. Has your daughter had any dance training? If not, I strongly suggest that she should sign up for some lessons before audition season begins. Although she may be good at picking up choreography quickly, if she does not have a dance background, her technique may be lacking, particularly in ballet. Dance skills are especially critical for girls in MT, because the competition is so intense.</p>
<p>^^^yes but there are an awful lot of college auditions where the dance audition is not a make it or break it plus some that don’t even test it. If you can pick up choreography quickly and are a great singer/actor, you’ll be golden in many circles. I’d suggest get as much dance in as you can. More is better. But dance is not the thing to panic about even if you are a girl unless you are really wanting to attend a school that is known to emphasize dance in the audition.</p>
<p>If you want to be involved in MT on a professional level, you need to have dance skills. Period. Certainly there are some performers who have been training since they started walking – if you are just starting dance classes, you will not be able to compete with them. But there is some level of dance/movement required in nearly every musical. Get the training now, especially in ballet to learn the basics. Yes, there are some schools out there that do not emphasize dance in their auditions. But why not start improving your skills as soon as possible?</p>
<p>I am a performer myself, and my daughter recently graduated from a BFA MT program. Of her colleagues, the ones who are working most steadily are the ones with strong dance skills. At my age (!!) it’s not so critical, but for young performers, it does make a difference.</p>
<p>Thanks for the heads up ONSTAGE
She danced at a private studio for 7 years before making the hs drill team. She took classes in ballet, jazz and tap. The high school drill team consists of two seasons during the school year.<br>
The football season where they have a field routine during halftime. These dance consists of jazz and mostly high kicks. The do turns and leaps in most of their routines. They wear a field uniform with a hat and boots. The second season is the competition season. They compete with other high schools in a one day competition. They do four routines jazz, kick, contemporary, and a pom routine. Also girls on the team can compete in the solo competition. We parents get to go to the competitions and set up the props and cheer them on. It is really a great program. </p>