Music Careers and Educational Debt

<p>@musicamusica, thanks! Here it is. <a href=“College Students Scared Straight Prank - YouTube”>College Students Scared Straight Prank - YouTube; </p>

<p>Of course, musicamusica. That’s why you’re on CC, I would surmise. However, you left off the end of my sentence–“and feel getting the best training and experience he can at this point is essential for his future career.”–which, in his case, requires taking out loans. Like I said, others won’t agree with this path, and I certainly don’t “encourage debt” for anyone. I just was presenting the other side of the story–that some go into the loan process with eyes wide open.</p>

<p>I assume that you support your student as well. I understand what you meant, but I can tell you that there is a running subtext to all of these music major financial threads that more debt= more support. Perhaps this is more to the point:we support and encourage our daughter and that is why we did not encourage debt. We have encouraged her to forge a path without a cumbersome financial burden. A burden that would more than likely impede her goal in a music career rather than enhance that goal. This is in no way a challenge to your instrumentalist’s path, it is a statement on my vocalists path. And based on her current experiences in the professional world. It’s a rough competitive market out there and support comes in many guises. I want to encourage those with a dream that there are more ways around this than crippling debt.</p>

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By the time you over the $29K limit you are no longer 18 (you’re 21 or over) so you an adult. You should also know that interest accumulates on unsubsidized loans from the date the loan is disbursed. One of my daughters spent 5 years in college. Some of her Stafford Loans are unsubsidized, so the amount she owes increased pretty dramatically. </p>

<p>The no-blogger rule at CC should be re-evaluated. I’m a writer and write for many types of publications. I might publish the same piece in a magazine, newspaper, or paid blogging site. The content is identical. I can understand not accepting material from personal blogs, but blogging has evolved–if an institution sponsors a blogger, it’s not much different from an opinion column in a traditional publication.</p>

<p>I certainly don’t equate more debt with more support. I’m sorry if my post sounded that way. I would strongly discourage anyone from accumulating a large amount of debt for undergraduate degrees. We were very adamant about that with our kids, and they became very proactive about seeking out scholarships and jobs. I was speaking from the grad school arena, where financial aid from institutions suddenly becomes very scant for most applicants (kudos to those of you who got full rides or even half scholarships). Then, each has to find his/her own best path. I’m glad it worked out financially for your daughter musicamusica in that she has not needed to take out loans. For my son, a gap year would mean moving back to a small town with virtually no quality performance experiences to be seen. I feel that no matter how hard he worked to try to continue to grow as a musician in that scenario, it would be very inhibiting. We looked at all sorts of alternatives, just as you suggest musicamusica, but going on to grad school for him made the best sense–and there was no way to do that without taking out loans. Glassharmonica, you make a good point. I’m just thankful graduate school is only 2 years…</p>

<p>This is a very, very difficult situation. Those who want to go into the arts, often have a passion for it that is difficult to deflect, and who is to say who will make a go at it? One certainly would not without making the effort. When to to tell the kid, it’s time to hit the road and try to make the training pay rather than training further? </p>

<p>We, thankfuly, missed this quandry. Our performing artist was so done with school and structured lessons by the time he finished ug, that there was not any mention of grad school. We paid for ug in full, knowing well that his course of study was likely to mean some lean, lean years. But then again so they are for most college grads that are not STEM major in some career path that slides them right into a job. </p>

<p>So, really, what I’ve noticed happening, and I have mentioned this on other boards, is that graduate school is now requiring loans in a lot of the disciplines that used to have tuition remission and stipends. That guaranteed Direct Loan of $20,500 a year is just right there for the schools to integrate into their aid programs and they are requiring students to take it. THis is not just in music but in classics, humanities, fields that have traditionally resulted in the poor starving grad student living in a slum, on ramen, but…at least they were not incurring debt in doing this. I’d have no problem with these students living in poverty, they are young, they can do this, but to rack up debt in the six figures very easily, that is a whole other story. This is unconscionable to me, and this is happening on a large scale because the colleges, conservatories are seeing their way to the government teat via these kids who want to continue to study their craft. </p>

<p>I am currently sick about the situation I see unfolding in my own life. A kid wanting to go on in a field that I frankly see just about no chance of breaking in, but I am totally supportive of the effort, except these schools want him to fund it with these loans. The very top of the top in these fields are getting the financial support in grants to go on with their studies, but there is a lot of “come hithers” being given to others who are being asked to pay as though this is the most normal, natural and right thing to do. Shame on all the professors, schools, programs people who are doing this to these young adults who really don’t understand that even those who are getting the grants are all not going to find a spot in the working world. </p>

<p>And yes, the grad school provides the best environment, of course it does, it’s all right there. But at what cost? Look at the monthly payments on those loans. Those rates are higher than for ugs. If the kids have ug loans too, this is really a life buster upper. </p>

<p>My son did consider going for a PhD instead of an MM which would have provided a much greater stipend. But the reason he decided to go to grad school at all was for a very particular education with a certain set of professors - and just because it would have been cheaper elsewhere was not a good enough reason to turn down a place just because he would have to supplement his income by working while in school. On the other hand, most PhD programs also require the student to work TA’ing or doing research - although, admittedly, one he seriously considered didn’t.</p>

<p>I wonder how much degree inflation is going on here. I honestly don’t know: have musicians always considered grad school to this extent? It does seem that the more students doing a BM or BA, the less value, and so the master’s becomes more of a necessity than a choice in some fields. </p>

<p>Do many musicians go on to a doctorate or is that mainly those who want to teach at the post-secondary level? Does anyone do a diploma?</p>

<p>European schools seem to be doing more graduate degrees that match US requirements, so that is an option. There certainly is more government support of the arts in some countries abroad. </p>

<p>Skipping the master’s in favor of direct application to a PhD program is risky except for an elite group (Like Spirit Manager’s son!), and also doesn’t allow the additional time to develop before the doctorate level. I have read that the master’s programs’ tuition tends to pay for the funded PhD programs…</p>

<p>SpiritManager, your son has free tuition and a stipend–but his situation is very rare right now. So even if he is not living as cheaply as he might have, he’s in far better situation relatively than most. </p>

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<p>This is very well-put. My daughter was offered that $20,500 in high-interest loans (she already owes loans on undergrad). She can’t accept them. They would ruin her life. She’s going to have to work very hard the whole time in grad school to pay her living expenses. Her friends who accepted loans will have an easier time, but not after they graduate. The kids who have some chance are from wealthy families who can afford to bankroll them and support them in their earlly career. My husband and I are planning to cash in some more retirement funds to pay off the unsubsidized Stafford loans our kids have because the 6/8% interest (prior to 2012) is murder. </p>

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There is definitely degree inflation. I think part of it, also, is that during a bad economy people tend to hide out in grad school rather than go directly on the job market.</p>

<p>Performers rarely go for a DMA unless they want a teaching job in a non-conservatory university setting. The DMA is more of an academic degree. I’ve seen performance majors go for multiple sequential masters degrees, or an AD after or before an MM.</p>

<p>The answer to the question about grad school is that given the competition out there and the level of playing entering music schools, that it is for many students becoming a requirement. A kid who enters UG conservatory who already has soloed professionally, who is already so accomplished, in effect might be getting the equivalent of a master’s degree as an undergrad student, whereas a student who enters conservatory not quite at that level, might need an MM to catch up, to so speak. A generation or two ago, it wasn’t quite like this, while there were always kids entering conservatory who already were way up there, the relative levels have shot up. Too, as GH said, there is also in a sense staying in grad school to defer having to go out and work, kids often do things like get an artists diploma, then get a masters, to allow more time to seek out that perfect thing (a grad student in my son’s studio, who was also his teacher’s teaching assistant, just got into a very, very high level orchestra). </p>

<p>To give you an idea of some of the level out there, an 18 year old young man just made it into the LSO as co-principal trombonist…</p>

<p>The grad school dilemma is a tough one, because as others have pointed out, a lot of them are becoming de facto full pay or near full pay, no matter how good the student is, they simply don’t offer the aid they once did. Worse, because they need kids who can pay (and this is just my opinion, fwiw), they could well be admitting kids they probably know don’t have a chance of making it as a musician, but do it to make sure they have enough kids paying the freight to keep the program running (I have no proof of this, just based on what I see out there and more than a little speculation). </p>

<p>Grad school is tough, because as parents many of us will have stretched to the Nth degree to get the UG degree, and then at a time when many of us are trying to figure out how to get to retirement and have enough to live, where we want to start saving as much as possible, rebuild nest eggs, we are faced with potentially another couple of years of tuition and such, deferring doing anything like that, or worse, signing onto debt ourselves to pay for it. I am loathe to criticize parents or students who take out loans to pay for grad school, while I don’t think having a huge debt load is an indicator of how much the parents support the kid, I think that the parents who do that, or who allow their kids to do that, are doing so out of love and support; it doesn’t mean it is always the wise thing to do, but I think it does show they care, too. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean the parents who say “I can’t pay for grad school” or “I won’t cosign loans” isn’t supportive, everyone has to make up their own minds on how to approach this, and about what they are willing to do. I haven’t gotten to that point yet, and I don’t know if it comes down to that what I will tell my son. We always have been encouraging, and we also trust him that he knows whether grad school makes sense, or if going to grad school would be worth it, and he is aware of the costs of debt…but if he feels he has a chance, and thinks getting an MM is critical to that, we probably will do everything we can to help, but it still won’t be easy. </p>

<p>Well said, musicprnt. It’s possible it may vary from instrument to instrument, or vocal vs. instrumental, etc. Judging by who was at all of the auditions (most of the ‘top players’), I would say that it appeared that going on for the MM in my son’s instrument was the most popular thing to do. My son had to choose between conservatory and university at the undergraduate level–he went with a university and put in exceedingly hard work to obtain a double major–which, while very wise, somewhat hindered his practice time. That is why the intensive conservatory level focus on music and his instrument at the MM level is so crucial to him at this point. One other thing I see happening is performers doing the AD after the MM…again, waiting for the spots to open up in the orchestras, getting more performance experience, etc. One thing not mentioned is that going on to grad school allows one to keep building connections and networking, all so important for the future.</p>

<p>I think pretty much everyone in my daughter’s graduating class on her instrument is headed to an MM program except one who is leaving performance for arts administration and one who is taking time off to perform (a top player, but far from an international star.) </p>

<p>With a graduating daughter (BA), I was initially surprised how many music majors, including instrumentalists, were going to grad school. It is kind of assumed in some quarters. So yes, some degree inflation. But for musicians, there is also “inflation” of technical skill with the extra years to develop, and it is a competitive situation.</p>

<p>The same kinds of things are going on in dance. Dancers used to skip college entirely, but now many are going on to master’s and PhD’s. Two ballet company members I was talking to today, don’t match minimum wage with their salaries. Both went to college, expensive ones at that. At least a PhD program would give them a stipend sufficient for them to eat.</p>

<p>I agree about the degree inflation. My musician son is looking at having a dual career. His other interest is physical therapy-he would like to focus on musician’s injuries. I assumed that he would earn a second bachelor’s degree or at most another master’s degree. I was wrong. It looks like his option is a DPT-a three year, internship intensive doctorate! I reviewed programs all over the country and found this to be the case for most schools (though some still offer a five year bachelor’s program. Each program admits about 25 out of 500 applicants and of those, only the top 5-7 receive full tuition waiver. S already has most of the prerecs but would need four more courses. From what I have read, PT programs and med schools like getting musicians-they see them as meticulous and dedicated!</p>

<p>Then again, you have the other end of the spectrum, the LSO just appointed a co-principle trombonist who is all of 18:) No worries about bachelors or master’s there:). </p>

<p>Even the most successful working musician I know personally (John McVeigh, lyric tenor), who sings at the Met and travels around the world performing, has a side job (designing/making jewelry). Performing, even if you break through, has so many ups and downs that aren’t necessarily based on how talented or skilled a performer is. </p>

<p>My daughter loves to perform, but she’s going to go into music therapy (which is still giving many people we know agita about whether she’ll be able to find a job. My goal is to find a school where she can get a degree in 4 years (plus a 6 month internship, which is required for her selected major) and not have debt in excess of the cost of a car. And not a top-of-the line car, a really good used car. I guess we’ll find out next year if that’s possible. She’s already working as a musician, but it’s a church job, so not a lot of hours available. I think these kids have to be entrepreneurial and I think it always worthwhile to have a discussion about how debt can really weigh you down and not allow to you go for some opportunities because you have a certain nut you must meet every month. </p>

<p>I really hope that there will be legislation on student loans. I can’t help but think the high interest rates are a contributing factor to the high default rates. </p>

<p>Senator Charles Schumer, (D), New York, is floating the idea of having student loan interest rates on older loans able to be reduced to 3.86%. Here’s the link: <a href=“Sen. Charles Schumer Pushes For Lower Student Loan Interest Rates - CBS New York”>http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/05/18/sen-charles-schumer-pushes-for-lower-student-loan-interest-rates/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I just returned from an apartment hunting trip with S for grad school. We had success. He opted for a very small efficiency close to campus. With the cheaper (but clean and safe) housing, he can save for a better instrument and auditions with the monies he earns from subbing in orchestras rather than putting it into a plusher apartment. He commented to me “If I did not pursue this opportunity (music grad school), I would regret it the rest of my life”. He had a late start with his commitment to music (went to school initially as an environmental science major); grad school will give him two years to see how much better he gets while picking up missing pre-recs for his dual career. Whatever he does, like his sister, music will always be a big part of his life and a source of enjoyment. Both love the community one has playing in chamber groups and orchestras. </p>

<p>My daughter, who also went on our housing search, opted for neuroscience grad work. Although the assistantships in her field are good and eliminate debt, she too faces an uncertain future. The world is changing much more rapidly for our children and they do need to be able to explore multiple options. Both kids talked about how many colleges are using more adjuncts and, in some cases replacing retiring faculty with multiple adjuncts in many fields. An academic career is not the “default” in some areas as it was in the past.</p>

<p>In order to thrive in music today, as with any field, my young adult children felt that along with talent and skill, a musician must be able to effectively promote oneself, master the art of getting along well with others, rebound quickly from setbacks and be willing to explore multiple paths within the profession. I learned a lot from them on this trip. Like many of their peers, they seem much wiser than I did at their age and are able to look at so many more variables. Perhaps that is the result of coming of age in an economic downturn. </p>

<p>I have enjoyed reading the music forums and have learned a lot in a short period of time. This thread has given many more perspectives on many more things.</p>

<p>Any other thoughts on what young musicians should be doing to prepare for this rapidly changing music landscape?</p>