Another Music Major and Debt discussion

College Majors Music Major
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<p>My husband and I are one of the millions that went to college for one thing, even received Masters in said subjects, and then did a complete 360 and and are no longer affiliated with those majors. But we have degrees, jobs we like and are happy. So most definately worth it. And we have used skills that we have obtained, just not in the professions they are usually associated with. And obviously the liberal arts part of the degree has been most helpful. This is one reason we would never dictate a college major to our kids.</p>

<p>Now we have a daughter interested in Music Performance. We support her 100%, but also expect to see her work and progress to be her best. She surpasses our requests.</p>

<p>It just dawned on my husband that "music majors probably shouldn't graduate with much debt". Brilliant! He's never read College Confidential or anything of the sort. But that's ok, because on this point he is correct and we've always planned on paying for college, keeping daughters debt (if any) to a bare minimum. it will be a stretch.</p>

<p>But then my husband asked, "So no one should go into music unless they or their family has money upfront for their college education?" He went on "We know extremely talented kids whose parents can't or won't pay. Should they give up their dream?" </p>

<p>So I ask, is Music Performance a major only for those with money? Is it the student's fault if their parents didn't save, live expensively, or just won't pay? I think of two trumpet players I know. One will probably ace any audition. One will get by. Both have parents that could pay, only one set will pay, and it's not the best players family that will pay. So the kid with the talent will be cut loose at 18 while the kid with the so-so talent will find a school. It just seems so unfair. And those with parents that have no money, yet have made tremendous progress on a used instrument-- but will never get enough aid to go to music school-- are we creating a generation of "talented enough to attend and progress only if your parents make $200,000 plus a year and will pay?" I think of the boy, now man I went to school with that had no money, borrowed it all for undergrad, and got a scholarship to Yale for Grad school. He plays in an orchestra now, and had his loans paid within two years of graduation. Impossible now.</p>

<p>I also know one family where the Grandmother has paid for 9 of the 10 Grandchildren's education. But she refuses to pay for Music. This girl doesn't want to lie to her Grandmother but she's thinking about majoring in music but keeping it a secret. Of course this means she will not invite her family to any recitals.</p>

<p>MUSIC SHOULD NOT ONLY BE FOR THE RICH! And too many people, $80,000 and up is "rich"! We wonder why classical music is not appreciated in this country, while we keep most of the country out of being able to study it for financial reasons. Even in middle school, people find out how much oboe reeds or private lessons cost and go running! I live in an area of mixed incomes with a school with a good music program. Financial reality hits a lot of talented kids about the beginning of jr year. </p>

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<p>Excuse all of my typos, please! I’m down to 5% on the iPad and looking for the charger! </p>

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<p>I think like sports, music - to a degree - can be an arms race. You can’t buy the genetics, the personality, the inclination but money does buy opportunity. </p>

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<p>It seems to have even spread from classical to straight ahead rock. Gone, it seems, are the kid driven garage bands and every middle schooler who plays anything is releasing an EP. It’s all about School of Rock programs for suburbia and parents buying time in actual recording studios (or building one in house). I wish parents would stand back a bit more and let kids create and learn some on their own (non-classical). On the upside . . . I watch my kid who has had to hustle for it and he can hustle with the best of them. I think that will ultimately get him farther in the business than a set of high end matching cymbals at 10 year old. </p>

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<p>Redeye, can you clarify the reasons you (and your husband) are saying that music study is only for the rich? I don’ understand…</p>

<p>Are you referring to freestanding conservatories without much aid? Because there are other alternatives that do have financial aid. Are you speaking for families who don’t qualify for aid? Then why is debt for music different from debt for liberal arts? As you well know, major does not have to correlate with career anyway. Music majors have access to the same careers, grad and professional schools as any other major.</p>

<p>Just want to make sure that parents reading this don’t get the wrong idea about music study. We already know of enough parents telling their kids not to study music, but do something “more practical,” or make sure to have a “backup.” From you husband’s point of view, why is music, specifically, not affordable?</p>

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<p>Redeye, I have LONG struggled with contemplating the very nugget of phenom in your post, that being is the professional pursuit of performing arts degrees only truly accessible to those with means.</p>

<p>Every time I read “music students should minimize debt” … And every time I see the various compromises a “not rich” performing arts major of any kind has to make…This comes to mind! For example, my son’s gf, who is talented and industrious, is a theatre director who, in truth, has a soft place to land that will afford her the opportunity to piece together low-to-no paying, short term or contact opportunities and the frequent shifts involved in pursuing a career in that discipline. By contrast, my son, with a “less soft place to land” finds himself engaged it all forms of sustenance-producing work, whether relating to his music discipline or not :wink: </p>

<p>At the same time, I know plenty of liberal arts grads with fewer transferrable skills in terms of employment than either my son or his GF, and with more substantial debt. In truth, performing, composing, directing, rehearsing exercise a level of executive disposition and capacity to focus that are very transferrable and very valuable skills to an employer. So should the liberal arts grads be told debt is okay, when music students are told its not? Of course not. The student debt phenom is or should be FAR more reaching than that!</p>

<p>What I’ve worked from this vantage is that NO student, not even an engineering student, really, should entertain more undergrad debt than the max allowed by the federal program (30k over 4 years). And at the same time, highly talented performing arts majors should not be discouraged from adopting a manageable amount of debt comparable to their peers in the liberal arts. Because at the end of the day, what they are buying is the life of their minds for all the years forward, whatever actual way they find to generate sustaining revenue. </p>

<p>What no one can take from them in any economy or world order is their own internal life based on their studies and practices. In this case, the form of the work, the process of mastery, is more important than the content. Content is fluid but approaches, the capability to break down tasks and execute a strategy/performance/conveyance is what is timeless.</p>

<p>What all this pondering and discussion has led to with my son is a clear understanding that his studies do not necessarily predicate hs profession at the end of the day, and that if he wanted to pursue composition and technology, that it may in fact be a pursuit in the wee hours of the morning after a long day for example of writing code :wink: That like any major, what he does with the degree thereafter is one part serendipity and one part self-determined. And with that understood in advance, the student can then determine whether or not they want to pursue music :)</p>

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<p>Another post from kmcmom that I would like to post on a wall. </p>

<p>An important point touched on above, for all majors and career aspirations, is that those with money can afford periods of experimentation, volunteering and interning after college. And debt can certainly inhibit choices for artists of all kinds, if there is no financial cushion. So I am not saying there is not a problem, only that it is not limited to musicians.</p>

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<p>Interesting viewpoints. I just had a conversation this morning with 2 “kids” (husband and wife in late 20s) who both went to Berklee and graduated with lots of debt. They quickly realized that they just couldn’t live the life they wanted (to get married, buy a house, etc) as full-time musicians. So they both work full-time in IT and gig in their free time. I know that they are happy with the decisions that they’ve made, but wistful about “what if” they didn’t have the debt. </p>

<p>I have 2 in music. D is a recent MT grad and S is a rising soph in Voice Perf. Even though we’re not “wealthy” we are able to help them out in order to keep their debt minimal. Even so, D realizes that her $50/month debt payment is $50 that she really can’t afford. I wonder how long she will try to “make it” in MT before going in another direction?</p>

<p>Oh and another thing about being very middle class and an aspiring musician? Summer programs and “training”. From a very early age, we told them we could not “pay to play”. They both worked their behinds off auditioning for professional work (theater, voice-over work and modeling) and winning scholarships to camps. It gave them a taste of the real world and a great work ethic, but it also gave them a slight inferiority complex - especially in voice performance. In the higher levels of competitions, my S was usually the only kid from a no-name public school who took voice lessons from the school’s private teacher. We quickly learned that success in classical music is often equated with family income.</p>

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<p>Compmom, my husband came to his conclusion about music and debt after finally realizing that for our daughter and many of her peers, money will be the deciding factor in whether or not they can study music, specifically performance. Most liberal arts degrees you can start off at your local community college and usually live at home even to continue on to a BA or BS if that’s your choice or what you must do. With music, you really need that special, quality school that’s a good fit that’s financially feasible and for many those schools are far away and/or their state schools aren’t all that competitive. Without a lot of aid, out of state schools, colleges with conservatories and most conservatories just aren’t affordable without debt for many in the the middle class. And as many have stated graduating with a lot of debt usually means you have to accept a job to start paying those loans back, limiting your music time and time for p/t music work and practice.</p>

<p>My daughter’s high school has a good music program, and we search for and take advantage of outside lessons, orchestra and opportunities, but there are very talented people in her school as well as in these outside groups that are not going to qualify for a lot of aid because, while the talent is there, they’re not going to be the best of the best when it comes to scholarship money. I think of the fact that my daughter will need a new oboe, reed making lessons and equipment, she wants a new English Horn-- all of this before even applying to college. My husband and I both had debt after our liberal arts degrees, but we were open to new possibilities and not passionate about our majors (and they didn’t require practicing and trying to piece together jobs) in order to succeed. </p>

<p>Plus with music we’re usually talking graduate school. And then the same conundrum looking for music jobs after that, which are few and far between. Each year our school graduates about 3-5 kids that I think could seriously study music performance, I know of one in the last five years that eventually chose that route. Her parents are relatively wealthy and she was free to do that with no thought of cost or support afterwards. She is thriving and will be a junior at Belmont next year. She’s already played with some popular music groups as a fill-in. You read it all over the music major forum about minimizing debt. For those that struggle to pay for college I’ve heard music called a “luxury” middle income parents can’t afford. My husband also wonders if when you apply for a non-music office job, for instance, does the uneducated boss say “hmm… This history major must have learned to write and reason well, have an understanding of the past, and have taken a lot of Gen Ed courses vs this BM in music major-- do they do anything besides play their instrument well?” I know WE know the value of music but do others? </p>

<p>As I said my husband and I are dedicated as long as our daughter is. But without decent merit aid anything but a state school will be a stretch. My daughter knows a young woman from another school who’s parents promised to pay for any undergrad performance program she chose, grad school if she chose, and up to 5 years of living in NYC. She skipped grad school for now and is singing part time in clubs in NY. We could never afford anything like this. They basically pay all her expenses and give her a large allowance each month. My daughter recently attended an oboe workshop and the first thing passed out was “expect these costs in the next few years” (not even including actual college fees). It’s scary. It’s not that we have no money for school but I was brought up to take money very seriously.</p>

<p>Maybe I’m just getting nervous, daughter will be a HS junior. But as I said in my previous post I see a lot of talented kids that can barely afford local CC, they can’t afford to study music. So thats why my question was, Is performance just for the “rich”? (We’ve even considered a gap year because daughter could study intensely and perhaps receive more merit aid.) </p>

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<p>I think it is extremely hard to make it in the arts without parental support if you try to support yourself as a practicing musician/ actor/ artist only. That is why most take on jobs like waiters, babysitters, nannies, personal trainers and the like to supplement incomes. Another way to go is to teach. This can range from giving individual music lessons, teaching classes for children or becoming a full-time music teacher by getting a masters in music ed. Some chose to work full time in music related fields, but even that is hard to support yourself in at the beginning. Many positions in entertainment related fields require internships, and require you to start out at assistant level jobs that are notoriously low paying. D graduated debt free as a vocal performance major (BM NYU with MT concentration), is working full time as an assistant in a talent agency and still requires our financial help to make it in NYC for now. So it is hard to navigate without debt…can’t imagine if she had to pay loans at this point. I would say that most of her friends in the arts are getting some financial help from parents and are not paying back loans on their own.</p>

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<p>BTW–historically artists and musicians often had rich patrons who would support them, so from that point of view, not much has changed. And the study of the arts were something that the rich would often do in finishing schools. I can’t say that being a musician was ever considered a solid way to support yourself. My own grandfather was a successful concert violinists in the 1920’s. Then the depression hit and he never recovered financially. He drove a taxi, took on odd jobs and eventually played weddings and the occasional Klezmer concert.</p>

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<p>I’ll also add to and agree with what megpmom said. Many kids don’t even have the opportunities to take private lessons as a kid, attend summer camps or festivals, or even have a decent music program in their HS. Yet they rise to top. When my daughter showed up at a certain honors band, she got a look like “Who are you?” as most of the students had known each other from all of their downstate activities. I considered second chair to a girl that had studied with top nationally known teachers, went to a private artsy HS and had a $12,000 instrument at age 12 to be quite the accomplishment considering what is offered in my area. I think it was Saintfan that said money equals opportunity and it’s true, its also true that location equals opportunity. If we did the gap year we’d have to drive 2-3 hours each way for even higher quality lessons and study. And even if these kids do all they can do, they’re probably not getting the merit, in many cases being beaten out by those that have had so many more opportunities to excel. And I don’t begrudge them the opportunity, it all takes work. It just makes it all the harder for those without. </p>

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<p>Some conservatories on college campuses offer financial aid, and can be more affordable than state schools. I have met musicians who got their gen ed courses done at CC then transferred, but I know it is rare. Grad school in Europe is much more affordable. I think there are ways to be creative.</p>

<p>Of course I agree with the difficulties described. We are not well off and I actually just sold my house! However, my point is that it is just as difficult these days with many majors. I have read that 82% of college grads are living at home for financial reasons. I read a great book entitled “The Boomerang Generation” that describes this as a world-wide phenomenon. There are exceptions of course (those who go into finance, banking, computer science, engineering, nursing, accounting etc.) but it takes many college grads some time (often waitressing) to find their way to a career, regardless of major.</p>

<p>The expenses of lessons, conservatory prep if available, a quality instrument, and the indirect costs of having a parent available to drive, are all extraordinary for musicians duriing childhood and adolescence. Freestanding conservatories, even with merit aid, are out of range for many of us.</p>

<p>A few extraordinary talents can succeed without conservatory at all, and can major in something else entirely. This means that yes, they can do CC, or college, but still have to pay for lessons and instrument. Those who want conservatory can find one on a college campus that offers financial aid.</p>

<p>So is this about the expenses involved in raising a musician, or is it about poor job prospects and the difficulty of supporting oneself after graduation? I still say that most college grads have similar problems. And I believe music majors are respected in many places. The hard work and dedication are clear to employers. I have written many times now that a few years back I read that as a group music majors had (at the time) the highest admit rate to medical school versus other majors, at 62%.</p>

<p>It may help to intern or gain some other practical experience during the college years, but that is true for everyone. It is true that most will not get an orchestra seat and will have to be entrepreneurial and/or work a day job.</p>

<p>I still say that the study of music for undergrad years is worthwhile no matter what the student ends up doing for work or later study, and I am just hoping this discussion does not discourage too many from that pursuit. So many parents are already saying no to kids who want to study music.</p>

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<p>The problem with the med school / law school admit thing is that it only works if your kid ever in a million years wanted to go to med school and had the pre-recs to do it. I’m not sure that having “doctor” as a fall back is entirely practical either :wink: If he weren’t planning to do music I could see my kid teaching history, but his chances of hustling his way to success in music are way higher than his chances of attending med-school.</p>

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<p>I agree, and was just responding to what someone else said about the lack of understanding or respect for music majors as a “trade school” education.</p>

<p>My only point is that graduates in many majors are carrying debt that is being paid off by parents, are living at home, and generally are not making it financially. The financial risks with music degrees aren’t unusual. Here is a quote from a media article today on predatory companies offering “help” on loans:</p>

<p>"Student loan debt hovers at more than $1 trillion, a threefold surge from a decade ago, and a record number of college students who graduated as the financial system nearly imploded have an average debt load of more than $20,000.</p>

<p>More than half of recent graduates are unemployed. And if they do have a job, it is probably a low-paying one that does not require and expensive college degree. Some Americans…are still struggling to pay off their student loans well into their 50’s."</p>

<p>My argument in another thread is that many students should not be going to college at all in this situation. The more people pursue college because it is seen as a prerequisite for jobs, the more it will become a prerequisite for jobs. If it is about money, and not the intangibles of an education, then I think many would be better off getting a vocational degree or certificate at community college.</p>

<p>I feel differently about music and certain other majors because there is intrinisic value to the study itself. And if there is financial hardship, there are still ways to do it. </p>

<p>I think the real financial inequity occurs before college in terms of the training, the instrument and the availability of a parent during pre-college years.</p>

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<p>Interesting discussion, and one that’s been on my mind a lot lately (redeye, sounds like our daughter’s are the same year in HS and same instrument so I hear ya!).</p>

<p>As we contemplate what we can afford in college, what summer programs we can afford, etc. the thought that always came to mind for me is what uskoolfish brought up – patron. I’m starting to see why artists have had patrons and wonder, too, if that’s essentially where this is all heading. I’m not talking about things to the extent of the Medici family bankrolling the Renaissance, and these days the “patrons” are typically the parents, but there’s a certain truth to this.</p>

<p>And to compmom’s point about affordable alternatives, while true, if you want to reach the tippy top of your instrument (assuming you have the talent) it does take money to afford the best teachers from middle school on up, afford to be able to upgrade your instrument, afford the top conservatories, and on and on. While I definitely fall under the camp of “life sometimes just isn’t equitable, deal with it”, there’s no denying that having a “patron” makes it a lot easier to get to the top (again, assuming talent to begin with).</p>

<p>All that said, this is not particular to music. Think about gymnastics (or other sports). The kids that stand any chance of realizing olympic dreams are typically the ones whose parent could afford training from an early age.</p>

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<p>In reading through this whole discussion again, I think compmom raises an interesting point about at which point in the whole process that any financial inequity occurs. I think she may be right that, as far as the actual attending of college goes, music may not be that much different than other majors; taking on debt with the risk of living at home after school with no job.</p>

<p>The interesting thing that has been raised here that I had not previously considered is the benefit of money before and after school. The build-up costs (lessons, instruments, camps, etc), as well as the ability to have some sort of cushion after college that allows you to hone your craft without the need to take jobs just to pay the bills (the latter, of course, reinforcing the case for a musician avoiding student loans).</p>

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<p>I also want to add that some European or Canadian schools are often more affordable due to state support.</p>

<p>Regardless of major or career aspiration or talent, I think it helps to think in terms of long term independence versus short term. That means, for instance, stretching ourselves financially to pay for a master’s (daughter was creative in finding the least costly option that satisfies her artistically) so that she has a better shot at getting funding for a doctoral program.</p>

<p>Overall, will her employability go up with the master’s? No. That said, through interning with an orchestra, and organizing concerts at her school, she was already offered a decent job in the music field (not performance). Should she have taken it? She convinced us, with her determination and love of what she is doing, to take this risk and pay for the next level. </p>

<p>Am I nervous? Yes. Am I more nervous about her than others in the family, doing other things? No, absolutely, no.</p>

<p>I see the same conflict between long and short term independence in all kinds of fields for all kinds of kids. And I found the media article today, that said half of college grads are unemployed, to be downright heartbreaking. The flip side of long term independence for the kids, is, of course, freedom from that responsibility for the parents. For everyone, these days, that moment is being delayed. Not just musicians.</p>

<p>It may be hard for parents of high schoolers to see the big picture as yet. For dance and music, it can seem like there is a sort of hierarchical, linear progress up a ladder to…whatever “making it” means. But there are many ways to “make it” as we have all discussed many times, some of them quite unexpected.</p>

<p>Plenty of parents are going into debt to pay for college for students who hate what they are doing, hate studying and are doing it just for the piece of paper, that is no longer even getting them a job. At least our kids love what they are doing :)</p>

<p>It is not easy and I do not mean to sound unsympathetic to the original poster’s point. But I don’t want parents of aspiring musicians to be discouraged by this kind of discussion. Perhaps we can just direct them to the top of the forum to the thread on “Busting the Myth that Fine Arts Degrees Lead to the Poorhouse…”</p>

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<p>I would never discourage anyone from majoring in music (or fine art, or philosophy, or whatever), but I do think kids and parents need to think about long-term implications of debt. Those loans are going to be around for a long time, and might eat up a significant portion of your take-home pay as a newbie in almost any field. If the parents have deep or semi-deep pockets and can help support the new grad - great. But not everyone has that support and, as my D is finding out, it is often hard to make ends meet on a typical under-employment job. Eyes open, everyone! </p>

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<p>@‌ redeye-
Your husband’s observations are very, very valid, about the cost of doing music and how much support it takes, financially and otherwise, to get to the ‘magic level’, whatever that is. I hear the stories, of the kid who picked up an instrument in high school and got into Curtis, the kid who never did summer festivals, never had a high level teacher, never did youth orchestras outside the school and succeeded, and even granting these stories are true (a lot of these fall into the realm of urban myth IME or are from prior generations) they are outliers, out there on the bell curve and don’t represent a typical experience. Some people without resources, like a family we know with a lot of kids whose family income is not exactly out there, are able to cobble together things for the kids, they are good at finding scholarships and getting aid, but it also takes a lot of work, it takes knowing the ‘system’ and even then, they run into obstacles. </p>

<p>There are programs that are both high level and known for giving pretty decent aid to music performance students, but the kicker is the student needs to be near the top of the heap to get them (and this varies from school to school, some schools do well with aid, another school with the same level of student will only give cursory aid if they think the parents can afford it). The problem with this is the support getting to the level to get that aid brings, among other things, besides the financials of lessons and orchestras and such, there also are the logistics to getting kids to their lessons, which with two parents working can be difficult (city areas have an advantage, a kid living in NYC could get to lessons or a pre college program or New York Youth Symphony pretty easily, thanks to the subway, a kid that has to drive long distances won’t be so lucky).</p>

<p>On top of all that, the entrance requirements have also soared, to get into the competitive and above programs. When you are competing against kids from China and Korea, who have come either from state programs (China) or well off parents who literally spend incredible amounts of effort and money on the kid in music, and also enforcing rigid practice schedules very, very early, the level has risen quite high. It started with violin and piano and cello, but it is hitting the other instruments as well, as the base of students applying has grown. We would like to think that the process is egalitarian, but it isn’t,that any kid with a passion or talent can make it, and for the most part, that isn’t true, with music, especially classical music, Malcolm Gladwell’s 10,000 hours requires more and more effort to achieve. </p>

<p>I think the debt issue is something that affects a lot of kids, not just music majors. With non music majors, a kid may major in something they have a passion for, but then find that to pay off the debt, what they studied simply won’t pay. For example, a fine arts major studying painting, who might have wished to go the curator route, will soon realize how difficult that is, and might end up working in IT or HR management or marketing or whatever, to pay the bills. With music majors, I think the debt issue is that given how hard it is to get into music, and the amount of practice it requires, working to pay the bills and trying to ‘make it’ on the side (where make it in this case is to eventually be able to be a full time musician),is rough, and a lot of the music students I have known eventually end up with non music careers and do music ‘on the side’ (and it doesn’t mean they are not happy or miserable or unfulfilled, many of them are perfectly happy with their lives). Coming out without debt, a musician can afford to live relatively cheaply, and be able perhaps to spend more time on their craft and less working side jobs…I think the concept of no debt is on the assumption that the kid is going to come out and do music full time and try to live well enough to pay off the debt…but it also is in the reality that given that musicians often work various jobs to support themselves, that having to pay for debt and the cost of living in general makes it hard to do, even with a side job. </p>

<p>And yes, in some ways, things haven’t changed. Isaac Stern in his biography talked about how an older wealthy woman in the Jewish community around the temple his parents belonged to basically became his patron, helped pay for lessons, instrument and so forth, and many older musicians had the same thing happen to them when they came from poor backgrounds. However, I think across the board that it was a lot easier to come from middle class, working class backgrounds and make it, if only because the expected level wasn’t that crazy.30, 40 years ago, a lot of students entering conservatories had private teachers, but didn’t do all the music festivals and other craziness, didn’t have anywhere near the practice regiment kids do these days, and made it into pretty high level schools (this by their own admission). These days, on violin or piano, if a kid doesn’t seriously commit to it by the time they are before their teen years, in terms of practicing and seeking out high level teaching and such, they are going to find it extremely difficult if not impossible to seek out a performance career, whereas a lot of kids in prior generations on those instruments could be good high school players and get serious in college…</p>

<p>And yes, music isn’t alone, it is basically what goes on with Athletes these days or ballet dancers. The kids who go to programs like SAB in NYC start very young, and the training is intense, and by the time they hit their teen years there already is a hierarchy there and only the kids at the top make it. In sports, epsecially baseball, parents spend a young fortune on training for the kids, travel teams, AAU national teams and so forth, and the same for other sports if the kid is at a competitive level. The kid playing little league baseball, then school ball with little or no outside training is pretty much the rare exception in terms of making it to any kind of level (to the point that MLB is concerned about the decline in participation of African American kids in the sport and participation in all levels, and in large part is because these days it requires resources a lot of those kids don’t have, so MLB is developing programs to attract kids like this, similar to what they have done down in the Dominican Republic)</p>

<p>The one thing with the music degree I agree with is that most people seem to understand how strenuous a performance degree is (or any music degree) and I don’t think it is likely you will run into people saying “oh, all you did was play music”. Among other things, recently Goldman Sachs, not exactly known for creative hiring, have started going after non traditional candidates and music students were explicitly mentioned in the piece (basically, they have found that the Finance Majors from the Ivy League level schools they routinely recruit from seem more to be pursuing a formula to get hired than display the kind of attributes they want to see) based on the attributes of what their training brings to the table. I can say as a hiring manager there are a lot of ex music students out there, and their degree is respected for the most part, definitely as much as a liberal arts degree might be, and like a liberal arts degree will require training…but things like teamwork, dedication to practice, being self motivated and so forth are well known, so that you don’t have to worry about.</p>

<p>In summary, what this boils down to IME is that for people of middle class means supporting a child’s music ambitions can tax creativity in terms of how to get them to a high enough level to get into a competitive program, and paying for it can be difficult because programs IMO are not offering the aid they once did and it can be a very tough thing to find a program at a level you want/</p>