Music School/Conservatory Tours

College Majors Music Major
21

<p>Binx: Sorry, but I'm the one who didn't quite put into words what I meant to say. To be accepted at Juilliard, I absolutely know your S would have had to focus on music at an early age.</p>

<p>What I really meant was that my S, unlike many other smart musicians (your S) chose at an early age not only to "thow himself into music" but also to do as little as possible to get by academically. He's actually a very intelligent kid and was in the gifted program through elementary and middle school but had to make some academic sacrifices through high school in order to pursue music at the level he desired. In his defense, he's done fairly well given the adverse circumstances of living in a small town, having to spend considerable time traveling to the nearest big city (100 miles from home) for lessons and youth orchestra rehearsals several times each week, and missing 20+ (I lost count) days of school last year for state and national honors ensembles, concerto competitions, and last sumer's music camp that didn't end until a week after his school started in August. All of these are reasons why he will be finishing high school at Interlochen with the intent of maximizing his ability to focus on audition preparation.</p>

<p>So at this point we actually feel pretty confident in his ability to be competitive in auditions, but not academically. Given the fact that the 4 conservatories to which he wants to apply probably only accept a total of 10-12 UG trumpet players each year, I'd feel better with another hat or two in the ring. Overseas, thanks for the info on Indiana's rolling admissions. That sounds like a good plan, and I know they have a teacher he likes and great ensembles. And Binx, thanks for the tip about Cincinnati. S doesn't know anyone who goes there or much about the teacher, but it sounds like it would be worth investigating and wouldn't be too far out of the way to visit on a trip to or from Interlochen. Any info on Univ. of Michigan and Northwestern will still be appreciated.</p>

<p>And one final (I promise) thought re cathymee and edad's comments on 2nd and 3rd tier music schools. I agree there are exceptional teachers to be found at many of these schools. In fact, we have a regional state U with a great teacher who has been actively recruiting S for the past 2 years. The problem is that the strings department of the music school is weak, and consequently, the orchestra can not handle the repertoire that S expects at the college level. The lack of an overall strong music school is what makes some programs 2nd or 3rd tier and less desirable to instrumentalists who need good ensembles to progress. I would imagine that this might not be an issue for vocalists, though.</p>

22

<p>Mommab, BU states explicitly that they do recruit students who attend BUTI. They even have a summer audition there for interested students. DS took that audition, but then auditioned again in February (a much better audition, he says). He is very happy at BU and feels he is getting an excellent music education with many, many playing opportunities in the Boston area (community and high school theater, regional community orchestras, etc. he had so many offers last year that he had to turn some down...so even in a big city, there are options for playing beyond the college walls). HOWEVER...at BU the student must also be at least in the "ballpark" for academic admission. DS was told that if he was close, the music department could advocate for his admission. His second SAT put him well within the range of acceptees so it was not a problem for him...but it is a question your son should ask the music adcom. They are very very helpful at BU and will answer all those types of questions for you. BU has good merit aid (we think) based on auditions.</p>

23

<p>I can give a little information on Northwestern. My son applied there, but was rejected. They have very high academic standards. We have heard conflicting reports on their trumpet teachers. One of my son's teachers studied under them at another school many years ago and likes them. My son's other teacher did not care for them. My son wasn't too disappointed at being rejected because he has heard that they do not like Monette trumpets, and my son was finally able to buy a Monette C trumpet this year and would like to be able to play it. His teacher at Indiana is a friend of Dave Monette, who makes the trumpets, so that will not be a problem there.</p>

24

<p>I would like to clarify a couple of my comments. First I did not intend to look down on music education programs. Many of the major conservatories offer education programs. For many students it is a great way for a student to be active in music and have a career. I also did not intend to put down University-based music programs. Many great musicians went through university programs, on to conservatory graduate programs and to distinguished careers. For students with advanced music training there will be a long drop down from a major conservatory to a university or LAC music program. It is not that the other programs are bad, they just do not come close to the intensity and quality of a dedicated music conservatory.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/home.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/home.php&lt;/a>. The Peabody webpages contain some interesting information of the different types of music students and programs. If you are interested, click on the prospective student dropdown and read the "articles."</p>

<p>I strongly disagree about trying to reduce the number of auditions. The audition process can be expensive and stressful. It is also a great learning experience for a young musician. If possible, avoid the remote, videotaped auditions. Visit the schools for the auditions. My daughter did two taped auditions, 3 "local" auditions and 4 travel auditions. The last one and the one she was least interested in, turned out to be the best fit. Plan on devoting most of the month of February and half of March to the audition process. For some instruments, like the trumpet, many auditions may be a necessity. There are only 2 trumpets in a full orchestra. A school may only have 1-3 positions to offer. Life is not always fair. What happens if there is only one opening and the trumpet teacher has been impressed with one of his pre-college students? If you want to prioritize or limit auditions, it might be a good idea to find out how many openings will be available. Often admissions will not provide this information, but with some persistence, you can usually find someone who will tell you. It is also a good idea to objectively access your student's skill level. Some teachers can be overly encouraging, but most will be able to accurately recommend the level of conservatory or other music school which is appropriate.</p>

25

<br>


<br>

<p>I think there is a difference between conservatory and university music programs. BUT the notion that all university programs are a "drop down" and the implication that university programs will not be challenging for "students with advanced music training" is just too broad a generalization to be accurate. There are some excellent university music programs that are actually run like conservatories within a university setting. Indiana, Boston University, Northwestern, Rice, U of North Texas are some that I can think of off hand. These music programs have excellent applied faculty...the hallmark of any good music performance program...and excellent performance opportunities. Of course the conservatories have these too...and are devoted to music only. As you said....many fine musicians went the university/conservatory route and did quite well with their careers.</p>

26

<p>Susantm and thumper1:
Trumpet moms are so cool! Thanks for your words of experience. I've heard similar comments from others about the academic admissions at Northwestern, so maybe that's one we should just cross off the list. It sounds like both IU and BU might be good options for my S. He will have to retake either the SAT or ACT for BU, as they require the new writing assessments. His original ACT score was actually better than the SAT, and he's a decent writer, so I think he might end up with a score that at least meets the BU admissions requirements. He's taking some private lessons at BUTI with the BU trumpet prof, and so far the report is favorable. If he has the opportunity to audition at BUTI this summer, I'm sure he'll be the first in line - he lives for the thrill of an audition! Good luck to both of your sons, and Susantm, please keep me keep me informed about your S's experiences after he starts at IU.</p>

<p>musicmom:
Does your S go to the Hartt school now or is he starting in the fall? It's another one that we really know nothing about. I'm sure my S can easily get info on the trumpet teacher, but maybe your son could convey his impressions of the orchestra.</p>

<p>edad:
It is exactly the 1-3 trumpet openings per conservatory that has me worried. That's why I'm asking so many questions, and really appreciate all the insights and opinions to consider. Also, I think we have received many objective assessments of S's skill level through scholarships and placements in top ensembles at Interlochen and Tanglewood, prizes at regional and national solo and concerto competitions, and selection for several national honors ensembles. Through these activites, he probably already knows most of the trumpet players with whom he will be competing for conservatory admissions and has already proven that he can play with the best of them. Good luck to your D, and keep us informed about her experiences at Peabody, too.</p>

27

<p>Mommab: Sounds like your son will not have need of a safety. But just for peace of mind, it worth having a couple. I would agree NW is not a safety - too difficult and we also received warnings about the music program. BU is not a safety. The program is small and I was not impressed. For some reason, BU is being used as a safety by many of the conservatory applicants. Very few receive offers.</p>

<p>We used Ithaca College. The music program is pretty good. No problem with academics. The average SAT is about 1100 or so. Some other safeties to consider are Hartt and Mannes. In addition the programs at Indiana and also Michigan may be a lot better than my impression.</p>

28

<p>mommab- D did her junior and senior years of high school at Interlochen. PM me if you have any questions. It was truly life-changing. She will be a junior at Rice this fall (vocal performance major). She audtioned in person at Julliard, Indiana, BU (Tanglewood campus), NEC, CIM and Rice. She auditioned at Interlochen for Oberlin. She was accepted everywhere but Julliard, which was a good outcome since it would not have been a good fit for her.
The audition process is a lot easier for the Interlochen kids, even though the travel logistics can be tough. A lot of the kids travel to auditions together and sometimes local Interlochen families will host the kids.</p>

29

<br>


<br>

<p>Just curious Edad...why were you not impressed, and why don't you think the conservatory applicant are receiving offers to attend? DS was accepted at conservatories AND at BU...and he chose BU. Of course we're a bit biased. The facility is a but dreary (ok...an understatement...it is VERY dreary), but we have been very impressed with the quality of the studio work DS is doing and with the work of the ensembles.</p>

30

<p>We arrived mid-day on the day before the audition. We waited a couple hours for the worst campus tour we ever had. We tried to tour the fine art building on our own, since no one would help. Very dreary and small. The next am we went for the audition. My d warmed up, completed her audition and we left within the hour. There was no parent's session, no tours, nothing.. Several of my D's friends had similar experiences and no offers. We later heard there was only one position available for my D's instrument. Visits may not reflect the true nature of the school, but this one was really bad. It didn't help that none of us liked the "campus" or the 6 lane roadway and commuter rail line which runs thru the middle of it. There was a really good Thai restaurant a couple of miles away. </p>

<p>The program is small with few students graduating: <a href="http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/cool/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

31

<p>Every instrumentialist needs safeties,just for the reasons already stated...sometimes they take in at most,2 sometimes none depending on need for that next year.The school will gladly send you an app, take your fees,and never inform you unless you dig for information what the circumstance is for that academic year. This is what happened at Rice with D (flute player,not vocalist as someone surmised)Leonye Buse ,arguable one of the top flute teachers in America decided to only accept graduate level students but that information was not shared ,or not revealed by Music Admissions.D found out from a current grad student there whom she knew from her private teacher.
Mommab...if you are willing to look a little further afield and are open to the idea of a Music School in a University setting in a place with lots of merit $$ plus myriad performing opportunities plus great faculty and brand new top notch facilities(practice rooms even have picture windows LOL, take a look at the School of Music at Arizona State University in Tempe.There are diverse academic opportunities such as an Honors College,the ability to accomodate diverse minors, housing geared to performing arts students,the social settings a large U can give and a setting worthy of paradise(think palm trees outside your dorm windows and swimming pools usable all year long. Trumpet studio is first rate and I'm not kidding.Ask others here with trumpet playing kids,they'll agree.I can put you in touch with a former poster whose son is starting there in the trumpet studio in August.
Enough said on my part, I'm now bowing out of this conversation.To each their own on what they consider a quality music education.To some I suppose, a "conservatory" is the equivalent of an "Ivy" and nothing else will do.Music is the loftist pursuit and anyone who tries to combine it with other interests is not as "pure,or dedicated".
My D on the other hand, was grateful to have the opportunity to have academic classes with a diverse group of students not only the same group of 50-80 music freshmen who entered with her;have a full range of academic options whereas in some conservatories you have 1 or 2 options each semester...their choice of class; minor in Women's Studies with no scheduling problems;once in a while go to a football game;join a group that fund raised and founded a Womens Center in the Health Center;live in a dorm with honors students with diverse interests and majors who have become her great friends,and finally find a mentor from the Graduate faculty who helped steer her to her true musical calling.</p>

32

<p>Mommab..forgot to add..Indiana was D's second favorite choice.Very friendly people, good facilities (unlike Northwestern..look into that carefully)good performing opportunities,diverse student population,lovely college town,good academic choices too. She just fell in love with the desert setting of ASU plus they gave her enough $$ to make the education free...Indiana's aid is good as well.</p>

33

<p>Indiana is wonderful. It was D's second choice after Rice. She received merit money (also from Rice) and was admitted into IU's honors college for the academics. Indiana is S's (rising senior) safety. He is NOT a musician! I am an IU alum, and can vouch for the campus and academics- if you like a big university.</p>

34

<p>This is slightly off topic. I noticed on the musical theater category that there is a thread about audition experiences. I wondered if anybody would be interested in the experiences of music majors -- where they auditioned, what the experience was like, and so on. I think I would have found something like that really useful. Process, what they wear, how long it takes, atmosphere....</p>

<p>Edad kinda started it, with his D's BU experience. (My S's friend, an oboe player, had a similar experience. She flew there in winter, was put in an unheated room IN FRONT OF A VIDEO CAMERA to audition. All that time and expense, and didn't even get a live audition. I have no idea if she was accepted or not -- she lost interest. She is now very happy at Indiana.) Obviously, Thumper's S had a difference experience, and the balance might be nice to have.</p>

<p>My S started out with a much longer list of schools -- many of those mentioned above: Rice, Michigan, Indiana, NEC, Oberlin, Hartt, Peabody, Eastman... As he explored, he narrowed his list based on teacher experiences, what he wanted from school, and myriad other factors. He found some great schools that weren't, for some reason, for him. (I say all this because I'm afraid someone will be offended that his final list doesn't include their favorite.) His final four were: Curtis, Juilliard, Cleveland Institute (CIM) and Cincinnati (CCM). If you are interested in any of his experiences with these schools, I'd be happy to post, or you can PM me.</p>

<p>Caveat: My S plays horn. Many factors change according to instrument!</p>

35

<p>(I know this is the forum for parents, so I hope no one minds me posting here!)</p>

<p>I would like to second the recommendation regarding Hartt. It's one of the top conservatories in the country, though somehow a lot of people overlook it, probably due to it not being a "name" school in other areas. The student body is great, and there are tons of local places where they are able to do internships and volunteer work, including the Bushnell, Hartford Stage, the Shubert in New Haven, HSO, Goodspeed Opera House, and others. A lot of grads end up staying in the area. (I have a good friend who's at the Bushnell now, for example.)</p>

<p>I'm not a student, but I'm from two towns away and have so many friends who have gone through Hartt/UHart and couldn't possibly speak more glowingly of it. I would really recommend it.</p>

<p>Also, another forgotten school is Westminster Choir for vocal performance, if anyone's interested.</p>

36

<p>I forgot to mention the video camera at the BU audition. My d was not sure if any faculty was present.</p>

<p>One problem we had was the lack of even approximate information on the ranking of music schools. I suspect instrumental and vocal would need to be ranked separately. For instrumental we tend to put a lot of emphasis on the studio head, but 90+% of the student's experience will be outside of this interaction. The quality of the ensembles, orchestras, and overall instruction may be a lot more important. For overall instrumental my understanding is the top conservatories are Curtis, Juilliard, Eastman and MSM - approximately in that order. After that list, the rankings become VERY uncertain. Even after a lot of research and visits, we never had much information compared with all of the information which is available for academics. My daughter would not even consider some possibilities because she did not know anything about them. These included CIM, NEC, and Rice/Shepard.</p>

37

<p>I think a lot of the comments here again emphasize the importance of having personal contact with a specific teacher at the school. My son, a cellist, visited or had contact with teachers with 8-9 schools before the end of his junior year in hs. This contact allowed him to get to know the teachers as well as give him a feeling of what study at that school would be like. We found the teachers to be pretty honest with us about their studio situation and the approximate number of students they would be taking in a given year. One teacher he liked a lot took no one that year and said that right up front. However, he liked my son and asked to be kept in mind for graduate school. (Son is now a college junior and will be auditioning for that teacher for grad school.)</p>

<p>Essentially, looking for a school in the performance major is more like looking for a graduate school program than for an undergrad program. In a grad school program, you look for a professor to work with who is doing the kind of research in which you are interested. In performance, you look for the teacher you want to study with for 4 years. In grad school, they evaluate you pretty much on your research and academic skills, paying little if any attention to things you do outside of school. For performancance, they care more about your playing ability than anything else. (When applying to academically oriented programs or programs that require admission to both the university and the school of music, academics plays a much bigger role.) My son would have loved to attend a program that was more diverse than a conservatory type program. However, the people he wanted to study with were located at conservatories. He made the decision to attend Eastman and has improved tremondously as a cellist. While he has had some rough moments, he has not regretted his decision to study with this man. Ultimately, each student must decide for themselves exactly what they want, who they want to study with, and what their career goals all and then adapt all those to the reality that exists within the various choices. I don't think that these things can be quantified very well which is why no adequate ranking of schools really exists. Research is the best thing to do to find the schools that are best for each student.</p>

38

<p>"My son would have loved to attend a program that was more diverse than a conservatory type program."</p>

<p>I think Eastman is a great choice for a double major or a minor in another area. Separate admission to URochester River campus is required. The admission rate is pretty high, but SAT's of about 1200+ are necessary. We found the administrations for both schools to be supportive of this approach, but as with most double majors at least 5 years are necessary and the first couple of years are best devoted to the conservatory. Only about 10% of the conservatory students attempt the double major and less than half finish. There is also a "Take Five" program with free tuition for study outside of the student's major. I believe that program is available for the conservatory student who wants to study at River.</p>

39

<p>I agree that rankings would be nice. But, the challenge with rankings is that so much about studying music is apples and oranges. What's great for one instrument isn't always best for another. As this thread shows, students themselves want different types of study - broader education vs. tight focus, for example. </p>

<p>We made our own rankings. We gathered a ton of info. We listed all the schools S was considering (about 24, I think). Within those schools, we gathered objective and subjective info from several sources. We used "The Performing Arts Major's College Guide" info, from the library, which gave us a good jumping off point. (I see there are several other, newer guides available now.) The nice thing about that book was that it gave a rank by instrument, and suggested schools we wouldn't have considered otherwise. </p>

<p>S gathered info about different schools from current students (that he met at camps and symposiums and such). He talked with teachers and professionals. And he searched various musician's websites to see what others were saying. (We didn't know about CC then!) </p>

<p>We kept notes specifically about the faculty, the size and quality of the orchestra, performance opportunities, reputation / job placement. Those were the most important issues to S. We were starting from a "know nothing" point, but after awhile, we started hearing some of the same things over and over (both positives and negatives), which really helped narrow the list.</p>

<p>It was eye-opening, as we heard things like: "the teacher is great, but travels a lot, and you have lessons with substitutes" or "the orchestra isn't very good" or "your playing gets split evenly between band and orchestra" -- things we would have never thought to ask.</p>

<p>We also made notes of audition requirements, SAT requirements, etc. (He bumped Rice when he realized it required SAT IIs, and he had a concert the day of the tests, and we were moving out of the country right after.) He was also able to chose his audition material to overlap schools, allowing him to concentrate on fewer pieces.</p>

<p>And, returning to the original topic, the music school visits helped narrow the list further.</p>

40

<p>OK....I'll weigh in with the audition experiences as I accompanied my son on all but one of his auditions. Best was Duquesne (a great music ed program by the way...one of the best). They had a schedule for the kids and schedule for the parents with info sessions for the parents. Very well organized. DS also took lessons with 2 of the trumpet faculty that weekend AND they gave us tickets to two Pittsburgh Symphony concerts (and also drove us to one). It was DS's safety school. Hartt School was very unorganized. No place for the parents to even sit and wait. Kids simply did their audition and I think a theory placement exam. No schedule, no info sessions. Tours were taking place on the hour. That was it. U of North Texas....we were very fortunate that DS's trumpet teacher knew the head of the trumpet studio and DS auditioned for him locally. We had been to the campus already and the music tour there was excellent. Don't know about their audition days. U of Maryland....you checked in, waited, did your audition and left. It took an hour at the very most. Peabody Conservatory (we were there during the BIG snowstorm President's Day weekend...what a mess)...they had tours of the school that you could sign up for. Parents had a waiting area. Students auditioned and that was it. Ours was probably not a typical experience as there were so many rescheduled auditions due to cancelled planes, missing faculty and missing students. The biggest problem was parking...there isn't any. New England Conservatory...signed in, auditioned and left. They had nothing scheduled for parents or students unless you made prior arrangements for a tour (there are only a few buildings....tours don't take very long). Boston University...students signed in and auditioned...and that was it. We actually did a campus tour that day and thought it was excellent. DS had live faculty for his audition (which was also taped) but only because he was doing a BUTI/BU combination audition. If he had been doing a BU audition only it would have been taped. We asked about this and they told DS that because auditions were held on multiple days around the country AND the faculty from the studio wanted to see all applicants, they taped. DS had no problem with this procedure. There are programs out there that do tape only auditions (no live auditions) so he was used to that (e.g. Aspen, many honors music festivals, etc). In all cases, we had visited the Universities/conservatories prior to the auditions and DS had taken lessons with the faculty there. When we visited, we did the tours and interviews, and any info sessions. Many schools do not offer tours during the audition times because they are doing auditions and their staff is busy. So....the best audition experience was clearly Duquesne...which was also the least competitive of the programs to which DS applied. I don't think the audition experience necessarily correlates with the competitiveness of the music program. Re: the taped thing...performance majors need to become accustomed to less "personal" auditions as usually that is what they will experience in the professional world. Instrumentalists in particular are often auditioned behind a sheet so that they are not seen by the committee. Now....re: my son's choice of Boston University...as I said earlier, NEC did not acknowledge or return calls or emails when DS wanted to set up a post acceptance day (attending classes, ensembles etc). He was very turned off by that lack of response. BU on the other hand scheduled a full day beginning at 9 in the morning (classes, ensemble rehearsal, chamber music class, lunch with the music adcom, coaching session, brass jury). There are several things that made DS choose this school...when he went for the visit, we arrived in the music office and they had a note for him....from the trumpet teacher he wanted saying "heard you were coming...please come visit". DS felt very welcome. Also BU offers a study abroad option with the Royal College of Music in London...something most conservatories do not offer. DS will be doing that in the fall. The BU symphony orchestra plays a few times a year at Symphony Hall which DS says is terrific. The BU facilities are dreary but adequate...but to be honest, NEC doesn't exactly have a "premier" facility...especially that dorm. Hartt isn't gorgeous either. UNT has spectacular facilities but 1500 students which DS thought too many. The best was the Clarice Smith Performing Arts Center at U of Maryland...looks like a mini Lincoln Center.</p>