Music teachers? Bassoonists? Any advice on a "starter" instrument?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>At my son's school, children can pick instruments in the 4th grade to begin learning. </p>

<p>The two instruments that my son has really shown interest in are violin and bassoon. Our school band does not have strings. </p>

<p>They only offer the following:</p>

<p>Clarinet
Flute
Oboe
Saxophone
Trumpet/Cornet
Trombone
French Horn
Baritone/Tuba
Percussion</p>

<p>We have agreed to let our son try violin over the summer outside of school, but we would really like him also to pick an instrument that would enable him to play in the school band. </p>

<p>The school does have a bassoon, but it is huge, and the kids generally do not start on that until at least middle school due to the size and unavailability of a rental. </p>

<p>I took him to one music store. The man tried him out on an oboe and he couldn't blow into the reed. He could blow into the clarinet, but the man said his fingers are too small and to look for a closed hole clarinet (hard to find). The man said that my son's "parrot lip" (I call it that) is a "teardrop lip" and that he'd not do well on flute (his sister's instrument). He also said brass would not be good due to the lip and my son's space between his front teeth. He said that there's no reason he can't start right on bassoon, but I needed to find a short-reach bassoon for rent, and I've had no luck. </p>

<p>I took my son to another music store where a very enthusiasic man who is both an oboist and bassoonist said that he might be able to modify a bassoon to enable my son to play. He did actually seat my son and inspect his hands against the instrument, and the problem was that the bocal was way to high, but he thought he could maybe modify that. I have not yet heard from him and I'm not sure if this will be a success. </p>

<p>In any case, he did let my son try an oboe with a synthetic reed, and my son was able to blow into that an follow some basic fingering directions.</p>

<p>Anyhow, the paper has come home, and he needs to pick three instruments in order of preference. They did this to my daughter, and I find out years later that her first choice was oboe, but she ended up on flute. The teacher has now admitted to me that it was a lottery. The school owned one oboe, so one kid got it. I wish I had known, I would have rented one for her. I let the teacher know that I do not care if he gets the school instrument, I will try to rent one of the "lottery instruments" (oboe, french horn, or baritone horn) if that is right for him.</p>

<p>The school band teacher said that if a bassoon can be modified, then she'll let him play it. But that may not happen. If that man can't modify one and rent it, I don't have thousands to buy one. He'd just have to start somewhere else.</p>

<p>My son is small for age. My daughter feels that an oboe requires a lot of breath support. This is aside from being supposedly a "difficult" instrument. She said no oboists exist in the high school band. Clarinet is "easier", but there are SO MANY of them.</p>

<p>He kind of likes the trombone, french horn, and drums too, but they won't convert to bassoon down the road.</p>

<p>So, any suggestions on where to start? These are my main concerns:</p>

<p>a) My son is perfectionistic. For example, one time he sat and did a latchhook kit for 6 hours, and then put it away over a mistake, rather than just undoing the mistake (could have done this easily!). I am afraid that if he gets a "bad" or too frustrating of a start, he'll give up on music altogether, and never even get to try the bassoon. </p>

<p>b) I'm afraid he'll end up with an instrument that will bore him and he'll quit music.</p>

<p>My daughter and I both believe that learning an instrument and being in band made a huge difference in her growth. I want the same for my son. While I am all for him picking a "unique" instrument like bassoon, oboe, or french horn, I also would be fine with him transitioning "up" to one of those if they are too hard.</p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>

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<p>Is there a youth symphony independent of the school system within reasonable commuting distance? I certainly understand that you want him to play in an ensemble, but the school may not be the only place to get that experience. It might be better for him to start on an appropriately-sized violin at that age than on an instrument like the bassoon that would have to be surgically modified to fit him. One hears of many children both younger and presumably smaller than your son doing quite well with a fractional-sized violin but, as you point out, bassoon players generally start out in middle school or later. </p>

<p>Kids who start a string instrument at an early age seem to benefit from the head start for many years, often right into college. Starting early on a woodwind or brass instrument, particularly on a large woodwind or brass instrument, does not seem to confer much of an advantage in later years, at least in the cases I have seen. The kids who go that direction put a lot of effort into learning how to compensate for the disadvantage of playing an instrument designed for a larger body, and those skills become increasingly irrelevant as they grow. Remember also that boys tend to fall behind girls in height for a few years around that age, then sprout up rapidly later in middle school and on into high school, while girls tend not to get much taller once out of middle school. (Yes, I realize there are exceptions.) </p>

<p>If the idea behind the school band is to get him to socialize with a group of kids at that school, I would heartily recommend having him join chorus at the school in addition to the outside youth orchestra. I think that learning to sing well is very helpful for instrumentalists, and learning to play an instrument is very good for singers.</p>

3

<p>There is a Youth Orchestra in the area, and while the site does not specify age, it is clear from looking at the list of members that every single member is in High School, leaving him no real group playing forum outside of school. </p>

<p>There are financial issues that make me worry about our son only accessing music outside of school. Our daughter is starting college this year (a big financial ouch). Since we typically pay for our son to do physical activities during the school year, we were unable to afford private music instruction as well. But after a lot of harassment by him, and due to a local store offering a free rental with 8 paid lessons during the summer, we agreed to let him try the violin this summer. We figured that gymnastics and dance were over for the summer, so we'd use what we'd normally pay there to let him try the violin. Of course, right after starting the violin, he came home with an invitation to try for the competitive team this summer. I'd like for him to have this chance, but the price is giving me angina. </p>

<p>I would like him to pick a school band instrument partially because I am afraid that our other financial commitments might make private music lessons inaccessible at some point and I wouldn't want him to end up with "no music" at all. If after these 8 weeks, he truly loves the violin, I will do all that I can to try to continue lessons, because I do believe that it would be valuable to him. But I also think gymnastics and dance are valuable to him. My son used to be sick all of the time, small, with a narrowed heart valve that makes contact sports to risky. In Kindergarten he looked like a skeleton and had to have Nutramigen supplements sent in his school bag. With the gymnastics for the upper body and dance for the lower, he has literally transformed his health and physique, to the point that he is rarely sick, his valve narrowing is so mild that he is cleared for everything, and he is actually the best in his gymnastics group. He also is a darned good dancer! So I am in a real financial quagmire, because with the fees for the physical activities increasing due to his skill, I am afraid that something might have to give. </p>

<p>I feel bombarded with the fact that there are life altering decisions already being made on my almost 9 years old son. Due to the young peak age in the sports, he's at a critical age for gymnastics, and dance to a lesser degree. I've also read that if you don't start playing violin before age 12, your hand (or something) is compromised.</p>

<p>So I thought that I could start the violin, but that some angst could be eliminated by ensuring that he accesses music through the school. That way, if necessary, he can always access violin at a more financially viable time, without being a total beginner. And he does like the bassoon, and he'd be able to access that through school in a few years if he stays in the school band on something.</p>

<p>Another factor is that band and chorus are real classes in our school district, with a grade, and a threat of being kicked out if you get bad grades. My daughter was in both band and chorus since 4th grade. We've always enjoyed the 2x a year performances. My son is also interested in joining chorus.</p>

<p>That being said, this is a real underachieving school district, with lots of problems with substance abuse. Even in Senior year, my daughter had a full school schedule with challenging classes, band, and chorus. But there are other kids who basically had a ton of study halls, or they'd get out of school early and roam the neighborhood. If I don't keep my son invested in his school life beyond just "academics", I foresee problems if we still live here by high school. My son is a talker, a real clown, tempermental, and getting handsomer by the year (like his Dad). He's still a loving little boy who trusts us and cuddles up with us to watch movies, but we worry because is character so unlike his sister's. My husband was the handsome, wild, "problem" as a teen, and because he was not invested in school or sports, he got into trouble, which he now regrets.</p>

<p>So we are hoping that he'll get started on something that will either transition him into bassoon, or that will be fun enough on its own for him to want to stick with it.</p>

4

<p>I wanted to add that I had my son listen to clips of all of these instruments last night and he liked them all, making this very hard. He first became interested in the bassoon a few years ago, based on its appearance, when he saw a boy playing it at a school concert. After he heard it, he liked it because he thinks it sounds like it's farting at the audience. So we've let him try the oboe and clarinet at the music store because they can lead to it. He does seem to like the deeper sounding instruments. When he first heard clips of all of them, he showed no interest in brass or sax at all, just the clarinet, oboe, and bassoon. However, he saw a school presentation of the instruments yesterday, and we listened to more clips. Now he also seems to like the trombone, french horn, and percussion, but he says that these are secondary to his preference for bassoon, oboe, and clarinet. He shows no strong interest in the sax, trumpet, or tuba.</p>

<p>He is playing with his violin every day at home. I'm not sure if he originally became interested in this due to the fact that my husband mentioned that he had played for a couple of years as a child, or because he saw this boy violin prodigy on youtube, but he does like it. Time will tell how much.</p>

5

<p>Whatapain, the youth symphony idea offered by BassDad is an excellent one. Do not discount it yet, or check neighboring cities. Many of the ys programs offer a tiered program, with seperate orchestras based loosely on age groups/grade level but also take into account skill level of the individual. Also, many of these programs offer financial assistance, reduced tuition, even lesson scholarship grants for those in need.</p>

<p>Let me throw out a couple of other options: if you're near a college town with a university that has a String Project, that's a great low cost option. Many of the details are here: NSPC:</a> NSPC. There is also a Band Project, but I don't have a link.</p>

<p>There are also other low cost, non school affiliated music programs in numerous locales, offered by a variety of individuals, regional/community orchestras and other NPO's that offer instruction, low cost instrument rentals. Many of these programs are geared specifically to low income groups as a way to introduce music and performance instruction to those who would otherwise have no exposure. It may take a bit of doing, but ask around, search locally for such programs. </p>

<p>As you mentioned the bassoon, you may have your son consider the viola as opposed to the violin. The deeper, richer sound appeals to many, and normally all the kids want the violin, so usually the viola becomes an assigned rather than choice instrument. While the clef is different and some bowing and hand techniques are different than the violin, in the early learning stages the process is effectively identical. If your kid seems to fit more outside the mold, the viola may be the stringed instrument for him.</p>

<p>Issues with some of the larger wind and brass instruments tend to be of size and physical development of the younger player, where required air volume and length of reach and physical capabilities make them extremely difficult to learn until a child "grows" into them.</p>

6

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<p>If you are concerned about the finances of this endeavor, I would suggest you NOT pick the bassoon. It is a very costly instrument should you ever need to purchase one. In addition, your school music teacher does NOT have it on the list which leads me to believe it is not one of his/her fortes. That being the case, the early foundation of playing the instrument might (note...might) not be strong and the student could end up being frustrated rather than thrilled.</p>

<p>Third...look at the other "things" you will need to buy for the bassoon...a bocal, reeds. These are not a bargain either, and you can't play the instrument without them. Reeds don't last forever (like brass mouthpieces) and they are costly.</p>

<p>I would suggest you try to find out WHY your child is so interested in the violin and bassoon. It might be a good reason and it might not be. </p>

<p>When our son (the music major) wanted to start an instrument in elementary school, we had an old (and I mean old and junky) trumpet we already owned. We told him that he was playing the trumpet and if he wanted to continue after two years, we would buy him ANY instrument he wanted. He demonstrated an excellent commitment to the instrument and we did buy him the instrument he wanted...a professional level trumpet (at the end of 6th grade).</p>

<p>DD was another story. She wanted to play the oboe. But she already had taken piano lessons for years so we knew she didn't have the music notation or theory hurdle to overcome. We actually started her on the oboe the year BEFORE the school started elementary instruments because we did not want her to change midstream in school once she made a choice. Oh...and we asked her "why the oboe?"....reply "I love the sound". Good reason. I will say, she is a fine player but it was not easy for her at the beginning mostly because she is very petite and her hands small (even for the oboe). But she loved the sound and persisted. She now owns $15K in instruments and a ton of reed making equipment and a case that cost over $300 (empty!). These double reed instruments are expensive so a strong case is advisable.</p>

<p>Violadad gave you some good suggestions. If there is a Suzuki program near you, there will be ensembles even for elementary school students who play string instruments. But again, if finances are a consideration, this might not be the way to go. I can't imagine a violin player progressing beyond the beginning level without some kind of instruction.</p>

<p>Both the violin and the bassoon are more fragile than most brass and wind instruments. That is one reason why you see them played by so many young students.</p>

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<p>It's really more an issue of timing right now. There is a huge age gap between kids, with my daughter starting college. I realize that a bassoon is exhorbitant to buy, and I realize that the double reeds all require regular reed purchases (although I will start with synthetic at first).</p>

<p>My son will have access to a free school bassoon once he is of the size to manage it. By the time he graduates high school, my daughter will be 28 and done with college, so our finances will (presumably) be in better shape. So I am really trying to make this all work now and get over this financial hump without blowing his opportunities (like the gymnastics, which opportunity will not be there at 18).</p>

<p>As to the low income music programs, we make too much for those (you've got to make under 35k). The burden here comes from the cost of his outside physical activities along with my daughter's new college expenses. These programs do not care about expenses, only income. </p>

<p>I thought of the viola, but I heard that it requires reading an archane clef not easily transferrable to other instruments.</p>

8

<p>To piggyback on Thumper's comments...I can't imagine any instrumentalist being able to progress satisfactorally beyond beginner level without instruction. School instruction only goes so far, and it usually is a very basic level. Even kids who continue in school band or orchestra are usually (if not always) encouraged or required to have private instruction as well, since the time in band/orchestra is not "teaching time", but "playing time".</p>

<p>We have a young cellist at our house, who began on a rental, and we only purchased her a cello last year, and not an excellent quality one. That will come, if she continues to play, practice, and show interest. Similarly, we went from a keyboard to a Baldwin spinet, and now we own a Steinway grand, for our music major son. </p>

<p>I think you really do need to start "small" but realize that there is no way around the expense of musical instruments and instruction. I would have a heart attack if I really added up what we have spent over the years on instruments and lessons. But, I also know that the rapid progression could not have come without excellent private instruction, so I think parents need to be aware of that before they embark on instruments at all.</p>

<p>Finally, we have known loads and loads of kids who showed interest in playing musical instruments in elementary school, and parents bought expensive instruments that are now sitting unused. Probably 80-90% of the kids who began the instrumental program in 4th grade with my son quit sometime in middle school. So, take some time before purchasing anything. I think the lessons are a given, but can be done on rentals or school instruments.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>To echo what Thumper and Allmusic have said- If money is an issue, I'd be cautious about choosing a double reed instrument. I also wouldn't assume that you could start with a synthetic reed. Sometimes the reed can make a huge difference in the student's ability to play. A private teacher will be a must. Most band director's can't help with double reeds. </p>

<p>If your son is interested in choral singing, have you looked into local children's choruses? Usually the cost is fairly reasonable as long as extensive national/international travel is not required.</p>

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<p>DD plays the English Horn and oboe. She has tried synthetic reeds for both and says they are not very good. Now...having said that, I'm sure there is someone out there who LOVES their synthetic reed. I would say that the reed your child uses should be the one that makes the instrument the best and easiest to play...not necessarily the least expensive option. </p>

<p>Violadad can comment about the viola, but I will say...whatever clef your child learns to play will be fine...regardless of what that clef is for that instrument. </p>

<p>I guess what I think is that you have a number of things to consider. First, you want to make sure that your child has a positive experience learning to play whatever instrument he chooses. If the experience isn't a good one, he might become frustrated and not want to play any instrument. Second, you need to talk to him about the school program vs. other music opportunities outside of the school. Third, you need to be realistic in your estimates of the costs. Many students can learn the basics of a band instrument from their elementary school teacher, assuming that teacher has some experience with the instrument. Some elementary teachers have experience with the double reeds and some do not. My kid's teacher DID have experience, but she was thrilled when we signed DD up for private lessons from the getgo as this really made the experience more positive for DD. Her instruction would have been very limited from only the school teacher (but this teacher was fabulous and gave DD many ops to play her double reed instrument when the band didn't often have parts for it in beginning band music).</p>

<p>I will second (or third) the motion for a children's chorus if your son enjoys singing. </p>

<p>I want to add that I personally think EVERY child should at least try instrument lessons (even at school) for at least one year. It is a great opportunity to do something individual that also contributes to the ensemble. In our district there is a great social camaraderie in the music programs, and they are well regarded by the student body as a whole (we also do not have a string program). Band is BIG around here (and NO we don't have a marching band).</p>

11

<p>Somebody mentioned marching band. You should realize that if your son's school requires kids in the concert band to be in a marching band, he will have to march with something other than an oboe or a bassoon, perhaps a percussion instrument like cymbals or bells.</p>

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<p>Hunt, it depends on the school. My kids' band marched in three parades a year. DD (the oboe player) carried the flag. She never played an alternate instrument.</p>

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<p>Synthetic reeds can never match the sound quality of a non-synthethic reed. It's important that your child starts off with a good feel for the sound of the bassoon, if that is the choice. Having said that, good reeds will cost around $12-$15 depending on brand, and store-bought reeds will almost certainly need modifications to be ideal. Private teachers can help out with this.</p>

14

<p>For a simplistic explanantion from a layman, the viola is in alto clef, the vast majority of orchestral instruments are in the treble clef. I believe the bassoon is in the bass clef, as is the double bass and (I think) the cello.</p>

<p>As long as he learns to read music, it should not be an issue.</p>

15

<p>Let's see if I can put this in words. Piano music is written on a grand staff. It is 11 lines, with 10 spaces in between. The bottom space is the note "A" (second A below middle C.) The notes go in order, going up the staff: ABCDEFG, then start over again, then start over again. Top space is E.</p>

<p>ABCDEFGABmiddleCDEFGABCDE</p>

<p>(Bottom line is G, top line is F - so you can write three full octaves on the grand staff.)</p>

<p>To make it easier to read, the middle line was removed, and the remaining two sets of 5 lines were separated slightly. There is still an "invisible" line in the middle. That is where middle C is located (hence its name.) </p>

<p>The top set of 5 lines/4 spaces is where the treble (high) notes are written. It is marked with a treble clef (or G clef.) Sopranos, flutes, trumpets, violins, etc read this clef.</p>

<p>The bottom set of 5 lines/4 spaces is where the bass (low) notes are written, and is marked with a bass clef (or F clef.)</p>

<p>The Alto clef plays the middle of the grand staff. It puts that middle C line back in, and uses the two lines above and two lines below. The viola is the only instrument that currently regularly uses the alto clef. (It has been used for voice, and a couple other instruments as well, but that is not very common anymore.)</p>

<p>Being able to read a grand staff makes it much easier to learn the alto clef - atleast it works that way with me. But learning the alto clef is simply learning a different sub-set of the grand staff.</p>

16

<p>For the record, double bass music is usually set in bass clef (although the instrument plays an octave lower than written, doubling at the octave hence the double in double bass). It occasionally strays into tenor clef (with middle C on the fourth line up) and even treble clef, particularly in solo repertoire. In those cases, it is still playing an octave lower than the written note. Sometimes double bass players have to read in bass clef at pitch when playing from a tuba part. That usually involves a lot of leger lines below the staff and results in grumbles from the bassists and chuckles from the tuba players.</p>

<p>It is good to become fluent in alternate clefs no matter what instrument you play. That is usually not something you need in the fourth grade, but it is a handy skill to have because you never know what someone is going to throw on your music stand and ask you to play.</p>

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<p>In addition to becoming fluent in alternate clefs, some musicians also need to become fluent in transposing from key to key....but that doesn't happen in fourth grade either!!</p>

18

<p>French Horn is one of those instruments that has to read both clefs, and frequently has to transpose. It is fairly common for a French horn to be handed a trumpet (treble) or trombone (bass) part, and be expected to not only read it, but transpose it.</p>

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<p>Err, ok, I guess the intent of my post was not clear. I've got to help him pick an instrument. I beat to death the psychology and cost before I came to the board. I've gotten conflicting opinions on a proper "transition" instrument to the bassoon. </p>

<p>Bassoon is only not on the list because although they own one, it's too big for a 4th grader. Also, this is a poor district that assumes that people will not rent or have access to expensive instruments. If given sufficient interest and talent, he'd have access to a free one at school when he's big enough. In "wealthier" districts, there may indeed be short-reach bassoons available to start 4th graders on, but not here, and I can't find one to rent. So in comes this proposed modification. </p>

<p>I understand that people mean well, but I'd like to see the empty plate as waiting to be filled rather than empty. Gee, maybe I should ditch the bassoon as a matter of protest against the elitism of access to it. I mean, the rich kid whose parents have $4000 to buy and allow their child to "experiment" with a purchased short-reach bassoon can start in the 4th grade. Or the kid from the wealthy school district that buys them for student use can. And so by the time my kid touches the well-worn bassoon at our school in 6th grade, these kids have had 2-3 years of access to a bassoon with school and private lessons. By the time college apps roll around, the rich kids won't need scholarships and the kids from the wealthier districts who had the initial leg up will win them. And so their legacy of wealth will continue, because they'll leave college still rich or not in debt, and continue on their legacy to their kids when they present them with a bassoon. While my son, who was screwed in the 4th grade, turns his restored bassoon off of ebay into a lamp. LOLOL!!!! </p>

<p>But here's something. I have not asked her what her primary instrument is, but I did hear at the music store that the school band teacher's sister is a bassoonist. And the school band teacher herself can't be too bad because my daughter started with her in 4th grade with flute. She also was in the school chorus. She is now 1st chair flute, beating out a girl who held that spot for years who had private lessons, and my daughter NEVER had a private lesson. The concensus of other teachers since this original one is that my daughter is good. I actually think that the district does care about the band and chorus program a lot, but will not invest in a teacher for strings, and steers kids away from "expensive" instruments because of a bias, just like they steer kids into community college and the military rather than 4 year schools.</p>

<p>So what this REALLY boils down to is:</p>

<p>a) Should I allow him to try a modified bassoon now (keys moved, I think the top tube taken off, an old bocal modified to come down more) as his 1st instrument? My son tried it only while the man "fit" it, and the instrument clearly looked huge and heavy, and my son said his back hurt after. But he still wants to try it and asks daily if the man called. Keep in mind as well that the school band teacher said "Hey, go for it", so she must feel that she can teach it in school.</p>

<p>b) Should I steer him to oboe, clarinet, flute, or sax as a stepping stone to the free bassoon in 6th grade, which one, and why. Does this "parrot lip" or "teardrop lip" really matter with flute? Is the clarinet better b/c the keying is very similar to bassoon and is an easier instrument for a beginner vs. the oboe which is a double reed like the bassoon (same embouchure?) but will the difficulty of it be likely to turn him away from music for good? Or should I start him on something entirely different, like the french horn (his 1st choice for brass, trombone 2nd) so that he doesn't have to break embouchure habits from a single reed?</p>

<p>c) Should I encourage him to forget about the bassoon for now, put down clarinet, oboe, flute, french horn, trombone, and percussion, and send a note saying "he wants to play bassoon, he's 8 and clueless, so help him pick something"? I mean, should I care that when he was 5, he excitedly pointed out the bassoon on the stage and I told him that we'd look into that when the time came? Should I care that he still wants to try to play it, and just tell myself that he's too young to understand the cost, the difficulty regarding reeds and access? Should I begin this "death of dreams", or should I go the extra mile for him? (I'm inclined to go the extra mile rather than have it be an "unrequited dream").</p>

<p>d) How about I just put down oboe, clarinet, flute, french horn, and percussion, with a note saying "he wants to play the bassoon", and that way he can end up with one of the following: i) a unique instrument if oboe or french horn is picked; ii) an instrument leading to bassoon if one of the woodwinds gets picked; c) find out if his lip really is a problem if flute is picked; and d) maybe he's terrible at all of the "blowing" instruments, so he can just do percussion!</p>

20

<p>Okay, I'll go out on a limb. If it were my kid, I get him the bassoon.</p>

<p>If you want reasons, I'm afraid I can't give you anything you haven't already got. There is a potential bassoon that will work; there is a potential teacher; there seems to be plenty of enthusiasm all around.</p>

<p>Go for it.</p>

<p>(Worst case - he switches to a clarinet or something later. Why not start on what he wants?)</p>

<p>Edit: PS -- We parents on the music forum love to talk about anything musical. It may not always be on topic. ;)</p>