Must-Read: Berkeley Admissions (including Regents'/Chancellor's Scholarship)

<p>"In 2007, there were 10,010 UC applicants who scored below 550 on the SAT yet scored more than 700 on one or more subject tests, showing tremendous knowledge and aptitude in particular areas of study. Among this group of applicants, more than 3,700 were Asian, Asian American or Pacific Island students. An additional 3,350 were Mexican or Mexican American, and more than 1,500 were other Latino students." Seems like Van Tran had some important facts there for keeping the SAT II and not lowering standards. Yes op-eds are opinion, but he backs up his opinion with facts. </p>

<p>If this proposal passes, thousands of individuals who have proven that they are exceptional students despite not performing well on the SAT, will not be able to distinguish themselves from the crowd. Those students may get in and they may not, but why remove the benchmark that unequivocally proves that these students are high achievers and ready for college.</p>

<p>To quote the Daily Cal:Standard</a> to Retain: SAT Subject Tests - The Daily Californian
"Six of the nine University of California schools are ranked within the top fifty colleges in the 2008 US News & World Report list of top national universities. It is the nation's most competitive universities generally that require the SAT subject tests. By dropping the SAT subject tests requirement, several UC campuses may lose footholds within the top tier"</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes op-eds are opinion, but he backs up his opinion with facts.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All he listed was raw data. ALL UC campuses use comprehensive review where SAT scores are only one piece of the admissions decision. We do not know what would happen to those apps if subject tests were ignored. Even you acknowledge that fact:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Those students may get in and they may not...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Since we don't know and cannot predict admissions outcomes, the good Assemblyman is just publishing data without context, without meaning. I assume his numbers are correct, but so what? We just cannot infer that everyone of those kids would be shut out of a UC. </p>

<p>But, to your point: there is no need to stand out from the crowd from a macro perspective. UC currently guarantees admission to everyone who is now top ~12%. The guarantee will drop to top 9%, correct? (If so, it might even serve to raise standards, as kids on the 9% bubble work a little harder.) But, the campuses, particularly Merced, have dorms to fill, so they will be taking a whole lot of applicants from that 10-12%, non-guaranteed range -- the HAVE to. They will also take some kids in the 13-15% range, some/many of which will be "Asian, Asian American or Pacific Island students...and Mexican or Mexican American"</p>

<p>As to the Dalily Cal article, again, please read the BOARS report. It makes clear the purpose of the UC proposal (hint: ranking is not a consideration). And, of course, like many journalists, the author is ignorant about college admissions: Subject Tests are not considered in USNews' rankings; Duke, a highly ranked college, does not require Subject Tests (if taking ACT); that Junior University Down on the Farm does not require Subject Tests, only recommends them; etc.</p>

<p>To suggest that the data is out of context because we do not know which of those students got admitted, ignores the fact that these tests help distinguish many individuals from their peers. Without the test scores the admissions committee would have to guess as to whether they have to potential to succeed in college, why force the committee to make this decision when the tests are available? We are not inferring they will be shut out, we are inferring that the tests help them get in; there is a very large difference.</p>

<p>The percentage guarantee is really not an issue because as you say it may raise standards. The crux of this proposal lies in the subject tests. Although it is important to note, that many of the top students opt to go to private schools anyway, so giving away fewer guaranteed slots will not necessarily help fill those dorms in Merced.</p>

<p>I am quite familiar with the BOARS proposal, enough to know that many individuals do not realize how much it is going to cost both financially and in terms of the quality of education in our state. Getting into a UC school is not supposed to be easy, we should not be making it easier to get into some of the best schools in the nation, regardless of how it affects their ranking, it is going to hurt the students who do get admitted.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Without the test scores the admissions committee would have to guess as to whether they have to potential to succeed in college

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no. They will follow the process used every other selective college that does not require subject tests: rely on gpa + SAT scores. Statistically, UC data show that Subject Tests do add some predictive value, over and above the SAT 1 + gpa. But, that predictive value is only marginal and it comes at a great financial cost (unless one works for Collegeboard).</p>

<p>Again, Stanford does not require Subject Tests. Like Duke, Yale does not require STs for those submitting ACT. Do those fine colleges "guess" on potential?</p>

<p>
[quote]
many individuals do not realize how much it is going to cost both financially and in terms of the quality of education in our state.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please enlighten us, preferably in dollars and cents.</p>

<p>
[quote]
it is going to hurt the students who do get admitted.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How? Again, those very students (2.9 gpa) were just admitted ~5/6 years ago, and the UCs were still highly ranked.</p>

<p>You notice something about all of those schools Stanford, Yale, Duke ALL private. That means they have access to resources beyond what publicly financed schools do. The best way to use vital public resources is not to completely change the admissions process in the middle of a budget crisis. Public universities, who have built their reputation on merit based admissions and for admitting the best and brightest individuals, need to maintain their standards. </p>

<p>In terms of dollars and cents it is impossible to put a value on it at this point. However, these higher costs were made explicit during the September Regents meeting when the board was informed that, “UCOP (University of California Office of the President) costs… are anticipated to increase by at least $1 million annually (currently $2.5 million.)” The Regents were also informed that if the new admissions policy, “achieves its goal of substantially increasing the number of students who apply to UC, both UCOP and campuses will see increased costs.”</p>

<p>It will hurt students because many students who already do meet basic qualifications will soon be admitted to elite universities. The Board of Regents already has complained that high schools do not prepare students well enough for the UC system, so admitting more less qualified students will only exacerbate the problem and slow down the learning process for those students who have already met the qualifications.</p>

<p>First, the mission of the UC is not to admit the "best and brightest," but to admit the top 1/8th of the graduating seniors statewide. But, of course, theres' the rub: how to define the top ~12% of high school seniors across a huge state, particularly one with many homeschoolers. Second, this proposal, if adopted, would be rolled out at least four years hence, and probably 5/6; thus the budget crisis is not germane. (When UC makes a change, it purposely does not affect anyone currently in HS.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
It will hurt students because many students who already do meet basic qualifications will soon be admitted to elite universities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not sure what this means....if they leave the state to attend other "elite" colleges, why does UC care, and beside ramping up merit aid, what could UC do about it?</p>

<p>Thank you so much for this post!!</p>

<p>
[quote]
The issue of standards can be debated ad nauseam, but unequivocally this will cost more money, as more students will be eligible for admission and it will take longer to assess each student since there will be no concrete criteria from which to judge them. With the budget already being cut, it is impossible to believe that this is a good idea at this time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, it probably would cost money, but, frankly, not very much in the grand scheme of things, and certainly relative to the rest of Berkeley's budget (which is huge). Let's face it. Admissions officers don't get paid that much, and there aren't that many of them anyway. Nor are administrative costs of the admissions office that high. Even if there are 30 adcom officers making $100k each in salary/benefits, that's just $3 million a year. Add on another, say, $2 million a year to run the office, and that's really just $5 million a year. Compare that to Berkeley's total annual 2008 operating expenses of $1.8 billion. Note, that's not Berkeley's endowment, or total cash in the bank, but what Berkeley spends on operating costs per year. Doubling the adcom budget would represent nothing more than a rounding error. </p>

<p>University</a> of California Financial Reports</p>

<p>
[quote]
You notice something about all of those schools Stanford, Yale, Duke ALL private. That means they have access to resources beyond what publicly financed schools do. The best way to use vital public resources is not to completely change the admissions process in the middle of a budget crisis. Public universities, who have built their reputation on merit based admissions and for admitting the best and brightest individuals, need to maintain their standards.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What is ironic is that Berkeley does indeed operate an extremely stringent and merit-based admissions process that at least equals, and arguably exceeds that of the top privates... for *graduate * school, especially for PhD programs. Berkeley PhD admissions are certainly no easier than that of any other school. I know quite a few people who got into PhD programs at Harvard, MIT, Stanford, and the like, but got rejected from Berkeley. Whatever financial resources Berkeley may be lacking never seems to affect the graduate admissions. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Not sure what this means....if they leave the state to attend other "elite" colleges, why does UC care, and beside ramping up merit aid, what could UC do about it?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I think UC should care for the same reason that any school should care about getting the best students. Having the best students not only vicariously enhances the reputation of the school through the accomplishments of their alumni, but more importantly, also enhances the current quality of the education for the other students. Much - probably most - of the actual learning that happens within a college environment comes from the other students, because that with whom you spend the most time. The better and more motivated the students, the more you will tend to learn and be motivated. </p>

<p>Again, take the example of Berkeley's PhD programs. One of their major draws is the chance to interact with many of the most promising young and ambitious graduate students in the world, whether for future research collaboration or general networking (which is crucial in the world of academia).</p>

<p>sakky: </p>

<p>I agree that UC should care, but the simple fact is that they don't. State politics is a reality, and merit is not their only criterion. Indeed, the state (read UC) has been going away from merit over the past ten years.</p>

<p>Sad but true.</p>

<p>Heck, if the state and UC cared about quality, they coulda saved billions by not opening Merced, and just raising the admissions bar to a ~3.2. Then, they could have taken those billions and pumped them into finaid so more kids could graduate on time, enabling UC to accept more each year.</p>

<p>Actually, I think that Merced could have actually served to increase quality at the other UC's by housing the students who are barely UC-eligible, and hence shouldn't have to be admitted by the other UC's. Hence, Berkeley and the other UC's could have saved its admissions slots for the better students and theoretically even decreased enrollment. The UC Master Plan guarantees that the top 1/8 of California high school students can get into some UC, but not necessarily the best UC's. Berkeley could argue that the new rejectees aren't really being denied "access" to education, as they are still free to go to Merced. </p>

<p>Unfortunately (yet predictably), that didn't happen. Despite the opening of Merced, Berkeley still admits too many lower-quality students.</p>

<p>According to the Daily Cal, Berkeley Admissions may begin accepting fewer students next year, due to the ongoing budget crisis and state funding cuts. The article (which appeared recently; too lazy to go search for a specific link) also mentioned that the university is currently overenrolled by around 10,000 students. Perhaps the lower-quality students sakky speaks of will finally be directed to other UC schools next year.</p>

<p>I can only speculate as to how the Merced-Berkeley and Riverside-LA transfer programs (guaranteed?) affect the quality of the student body at those schools, but I conjecture that it probably removes the top students at Merced/Riverside and moves them to Berkeley/LA, where they may or may not be at the lower end of the spectrum. This would probably reduce quality at all four of the mentioned schools, and both leave empty dorms at Merced/Riverside and add people to the overcrowded Cal/LA. If these programs were hypothetically eliminated, what would happen?</p>

<p>
[quote]
The article (which appeared recently; too lazy to go search for a specific link) also mentioned that the university is currently overenrolled by around 10,000 students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Surely you mean 1000. To be overenrolled by 10,000 would mean that the school is really overenrolled, given that there are only 23,000 total undergrads on campus. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I can only speculate as to how the Merced-Berkeley and Riverside-LA transfer programs (guaranteed?) affect the quality of the student body at those schools,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I don't think the transfer programs are a bad idea per se. I just think they are incomplete. In addition to a Merced->Berkeley transfer program, there should also be a Berkeley-> Merced transfer program, that is, anybody at Berkeley who wants to switch to Merced is free to do so, and presumably those students who are doing poorly at Berkeley will take it. Furthermore, those students who are actually failing at Berkeley, instead of being thrown out, may instead be offered the chance to transfer to Merced. </p>

<p>As a possible sweetener, you could add the perk of being able to seal your academic record at Berkeley should you decide to switch to Merced. Hence, if you've been doing poorly at Berkeley, you can get a redo at Merced, rather than having to carry around your poor Berkeley grades on your academic record for the rest of your life. </p>

<p>I can think of a lot of people who flunked out of Berkeley who would have loved to have gotten a fresh start at Merced. That's a heck of a lot better than not even getting a degree at all. As things stand now, if you fail at Berkeley, obviously not only won't you be able to graduate from Berkeley, but most other decent schools probably won't give you a chance either because you flunked out of your previous school.</p>

<p>sakky:</p>

<p>It was the total UC that is over-enrolled by 10k, according to UCOP press release. But, that over-enrollment is a a budgetary number, i.e., they guessed on how many would show up as Frosh and the Legislature approves a budget for that amount of total students. But, due to higher than expected yield and other factors (6-year grad rate), the system has 10,000 more students than the Legislature provides money for.</p>

<p>I agree with your concept of a redo, but not at a UC -- go to a juco instead, and guaranteed admission to Merced with a 3.0 and guaranteed to a higher UC with a 3.7+</p>

<p>Apologies, the exact quote is "The university currently enrolls about 10,000 full-time students more than its resources can support, according to the regents. " and I took that to mean UC Berkeley. The article can be found here: Without</a> More Funding, UC May Cut Enrollment - The Daily Californian</p>

<p>If you have a UCGPA of 4.2+ and a 2150+, stop freaking out. It's extremely unlikely that both UCLA and Cal will turn you down, at least for their L&S programs.</p>

<p>My essay has 954 words. What was the 950/50 split iVinshe was talking about? Do I have to get as close to 1000 word mark as possible?</p>

<p>Shadow: Your essay (singular) or essays (plural) have 954 words? I believe the app says 1000 words, combined. Meaning word count for essay 1 + word count for essay 2 = 1000, or somewhere around there. My comment about 950/50 was that you really have a lot of freedom for how you want to allocate your 1000 word count, but if your first essay is 950 words and your second essay is 50 words, that probably wouldn't be a good aspect of your application. If your combined count is 954, that's definitely fine.</p>

<p>^ Oh shoot! My first essay has 954 words! OMG thanks for pointing it out!</p>