<p>HappytoGraduate,</p>
<p>I never suggested that paying for education isn't a good idea. What I, and many others, have said is that paying far far more than one needs to in order to get the degree they want is not a good idea. </p>
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I guess the adage is really true - those who can't do, teach.
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<p>This country needs all the highly qualified and dedicated teachers it can get its hands on.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, if you aren't paying loans on an education, it will be on a house, or a car, etc. Everyone will always have something.</p>
<p>The standards of community college are not high, and while for the purpose of achieving credit are good, the quality of education as well as expectations are not, unless the student is HIGHLY self motivated.</p>
<p>I'm glad your daughter chose a private school for her undergraduate education. She'll thank you years later.</p>
<p>HappytoGraduate, GPA doesn't transfer from one university to another, not just from CC to 4-year school. The prestige or quality (not the same thing!) of the original school doesn't matter, just that it's a different school--it's not a slur on CCs. AMCAS uses all grades, whether from community college or Caltech, when they're computing GPA. Perhaps that says something.</p>
<p>I do think there are other things to consider besides cost in deciding on the community college route. But even just looking at finances, there's a potential downside. Even state universities that take tons of transfers from their state's community colleges sometimes won't accept all of the credit, making it much more likely that you'll take longer than 4 years total to graduate and hence pay more than 8 semesters' tuition. And most merit scholarships are reserved for incoming freshmen, so someone who might not have paid sticker price as a freshman applicant could end up doing so as a transfer.</p>
<p>^^ Deleted my post. TMI. Just trying to say kids often have no idea the sacrifices parents make.</p>
<p>Actually, if you read carefully, OP's D is currently concurrently enrolled in CC & her HS & OP attended CC, as did my D. It can be a helpful option and should not be discarded out of hand unless you have personal knowledge of the situation--parties involved, options and alternatives. I know some of the faculty at CCs & they concurrently teach at both flagship U & CC. You CAN get a very good education starting at CC, as OP knows and attests to.</p>
<p>I suggest that we all stick to the subject of helping the OP without getting distracted by comments that are inflammatory and that have little basis in facts.</p>
<p>CC can be a great option for some students. I know many people who went the CC route then transfered into USC. If the student is not going to get into the highly ranked school, it can pay to go to a CC first then transfer into the school you want. Not only do you save money, but you end up with the diploma from the school you want.</p>
<p>It isn't good for every student, but it's up to the student and parent to decide what is best.</p>
<p>Well said Northstarmom!</p>
<p>Happytograduate, it would be so much appreciated if you and other non-parents kept your advice to the other forums. The reason the OP posted here was because she wanted the advice of her peers. She can get advice from other non-parents on the other boards on this site.</p>
<p>MomofPA, Just wondering if you and your daughter have looked at West Chester or Kutztown? I was surprised when I was looking at colleges with my two older kids how nice Millersville and Kutztown were. Both of my kids were accepted at Millersville but opted not to go. West Chester is one of the only Colleges in the state school that is connected to a pretty cool city. Neither of my kids were interested in West Chester because we lived very close to it for 10 years and they wanted something unfamiliar. </p>
<p>Back to pricey privates for a minute. One of the things we did when looking for colleges was to check out what the schools endowment is and what percentage of kids get merit aid. My kids both attend or graduated from colleges that gave large grants to more then 80% of the students. My son attends Roanoke College in Virginia and we pay less then half of the sticker price due to merit aid. I found college data .com a good source and also the NCES site. Here is the link from there that shows the avg. aid at Roanoke: College</a> Navigator - Roanoke College If the link doesn't hook you up directly to Roanoke, you can get to it by typing in Roanoke and then clicking on Financial aid. Or look at any college that way. </p>
<p>We told both kids before they started looking that we would pay the cost of PSU and they would have to take out loans for any amount over that if the merit aid didn't cover it. That made them much more interested in looking at colleges with a history of giving much merit aid.</p>
<p>My son is right now doing a study abroad in England that only cost us the airfare, and the expensive things I have been silly enough to send. We just pay our regular amount to the school and he even gets a stipend for food since the dorm in England is self catered. My son did have a roommate freshman year but since then has been in single room suites that have been really nice. The set-up in his UK dorm is also a single.</p>
<p>If you have any questions about some of the state schools, I'd be happy to give you my opinion. I think I have a review somewhere on here for Kutztown, but I've visited Millersville three times, Bloomsburg and PSU - University Park. I used to drive through the West Chester campus every Sunday for several years (on the way to church) but never had an official visit.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to push the expensive private school, I really am not. The OP is probably giving good advice to her D. </p>
<p>But I do want to point out the different mindsets that we have with respect to the financing of education versus financing a house. If I buy a house for a fair price, with 20% down and a 30 year mortgage, I am doing something that is socially acceptable and considered responsible. But if I decide that I want to make a 20% cash downpayment on an education and finance the remaining 80% over a 30 year period, it is considered downright irresponsible.</p>
<p>Once again, I am not talking about the OP's specific situation, because it seems that the D will get a fine education even if she goes to state school.</p>
<p>I see a lot of parents posting in this thread but not a lot of high school seniors. I think it would be valuable to see what seniors think of the situation. </p>
<p>I don't think it's fair that parents push their children to top schools from an early age and instill that sense of "Ivy League or bust" and then withdraw from the financial support associated with those private colleges. When your child is still young, you worry that your son and/or daughter might not be able to make it to those colleges, so you tell them that they can, that they have the ability to do so. Now that your son and/or daughter is nearing the end of his or her high school career, you think that he or she has a really good shot at these private institutions. You then take a look at the financial aid and realize that you won't be able to afford it. How will your child react? You've convinced them from an early age that only elite private colleges are worth attending. Now you take a step backward and say "no, no, that's not what I meant". </p>
<p>Preparing for these private institutions isn't an easy task for the student. He or she took the most rigorous classes in high school and filled up his or her resume with ECs. He or she had to make sacrifices in order to maintain a good academic standard. On more than one occasion, he or she had to give up going to a dance or a party in order to study that evening for an exam the next day. Isn't it heart wrenching to go to the same state university with the guy from your class who took moderately rigorous classes and only a few ECs to boast, al the while partying his butt off in high school? Your child will definitely feel "ripped off" and that all his or her extra effort amounted to nothing. It's understandable that they feel as though they should have spent less time studying and more time partying.</p>
<p>Parents don't talk about finances with their children while they are still young. Every parent wants his or her children to do well in school. Many know in advance that they will not be able to afford the elite institution that they drilled into their children's heads into preparing for. You gave them ambition, even self-value, and then you took it away. So I ask you, is it fair to "trick" the child?</p>
<p>Kids don't know the value of a dollar, right? Kids spent too lavishly and are unrealistic, right? I am a high school senior. I work part time and have never had an allowance. Chances are, you didn't buy your own graphing calculator and SAT study guides, nor have you worn the same sweater and sweat pants for two and a half years. Well, over the years I daresay that it certainly feels as though I've "learned the value of a dollar", as some parents had been so adamant upon. But what do I know, I don't pay the bills. However, I wish my parents had been more honest about my financial situation. "Get in, and we'll take care of the rest," is what they told me. Now as college applications are beginning to be shipped out of the house, they change their story. "Hang on, we can't afford this college. Nor can we afford that. Nor that. Nor that. Hey, check out the state college. We can do that."</p>
<p>I didn't want to turn this into an anecdotal "pity me" story but I think parents should realize that their children DO know the value of a dollar, and are in fact well aware of their present circumstances. They are not "selfish" for wanting to go to an elite institution. After all, you told them to aim for the top and that's exactly what they did. So you can probably excuse your child if he or she feels a "wee bit" bitter about the situation.</p>
<p>"What I, and many others, have said is that paying far far more than one needs to in order to get the degree they want is not a good idea."</p>
<p>^IMO, that depends on which school is under discussion. some are worth it, others not</p>
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<blockquote> <blockquote> <p>After all, you told them to aim for the top and that's exactly what they did. So you can probably excuse your child if he or she feels a "wee bit" bitter about the situation.>></p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
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<p>I do truly sympathize with students who are getting caught up in this financial mess. Yes, they should be excused for feeling bitter about the situation. Students who graduated from high school during the Great Depression or World War II or the Vietnam draft were also pretty bitter. This is a historic downturn in the economy, it is going to have a lot of casualties and this year's seniors are among them.</p>
<p>Conquestor, very well said. Best post by far. Where you say, "Isn't it heart wrenching to go to the same state university with the guy from your class who took moderately rigorous classes and only a few ECs to boast, al the while partying his butt off in high school? Your child will definitely feel "ripped off" and that all his or her extra effort amounted to nothing," really brings things into perspective.</p>
<p>Also KathieP, while this may be a Parents Forum, if the OP was making this financial decision for an education for herself, then it wouldn't matter. The point is it is the DAUGHTER that is the one who has to go to class, put in the hours of studying, taking exams, etc. Just looking at it from a purely number crunching standpoint, without looking at the repercussions of that route, esp. the mindset the student will be going into this route is not smart.</p>
<p>"parents push their children to top schools from an early age and instill that sense of "Ivy League or bust" </p>
<p>"You've convinced them from an early age that only elite private colleges are worth attending."</p>
<p>"He or she took the most rigorous classes in high school and filled up his or her resume with ECs. He or she had to make sacrifices in order to maintain a good academic standard. On more than one occasion, he or she had to give up going to a dance or a party in order to study that evening for an exam the next day. "</p>
<p>Conquestor, that may be YOUR story, and maybe even most of the kids who post on CC, but I thnk the parents who post and their kids may represent a different population. That sure doesn't sound like MY D! She's a good student, but she never heard the word Ivy or private from me! She worked hard at both school and EC's because that's who she is. I wonder how close your description comes to the OP's kid.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>But I do want to point out the different mindsets that we have with respect to the financing of education versus financing a house. If I buy a house for a fair price, with 20% down and a 30 year mortgage, I am doing something that is socially acceptable and considered responsible. But if I decide that I want to make a 20% cash downpayment on an education and finance the remaining 80% over a 30 year period, it is considered downright irresponsible.>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>Very true, vicariousparent. Funny how for a solid education, if someone wanted to do the above, it's considered irresponsible.</p>
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If I buy a house for a fair price, with 20% down and a 30 year mortgage, I am doing something that is socially acceptable and considered responsible. But if I decide that I want to make a 20% cash downpayment on an education and finance the remaining 80% over a 30 year period, it is considered downright irresponsible.
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<p>I wouldn't say it's irresponsible (so long as one can comfortably make the payments), but these two things are apples and oranges.</p>
<p>It's the difference between making payments towards a depreciative investment and an appreciative investment. </p>
<p>In the philosophical sense we can argue till we're blue in the face, but in real financial terms the degree is most valuable the day after graduation. From that point forward, the real value of the degree slowly depreciates away. </p>
<p>On the other hand, a house will slow appreciate in value over time. Although there can be short term variations (as we're seeing now in some cases), in the long term the house will be worth much more 30 years from now than today.</p>
<p>Now obviously it's quite rare for someone to be able to get a full education without any out-of-pocket expense. And for many people out-of-pocket expenses will need to be met with some loans. That's not a bad thing at all, so long as it's done with moderation and one doesn't taken on more debt than they really need.</p>
<p>I would liken 'buying' a degree (you're really buying the right to attend a school to earn the degree) to buying a car. One needs a car to get around. So long as the car is in good working order it will safely get you where you want to go. You can spend say $10k on a nice used car or $40k on a really fancy brand new car, but neither will give you a particular advantage in the most fundamental sense... they both allow you to drive around. Some might think the really expensive car is quite fancy, but fundamentally they both have an engine and four wheels... and in fact some of the best cars ever produced were some of the least expensive. Ultimately, it's the driver in the car that makes something happen.</p>
<p>As I said before, this is the PARENTS forum. You non-parents may have opinions but until you have children and are supporting a family, you have no idea of where the op is coming from. </p>
<p>I second Shrinkrap - even my sophomore HS son knows the deal on how much we'll pay for college costs now. Don't assume that all parents kept this a deep dark secret. "convinced them from an early age that only elite private colleges are worth attending." Ummm, I don't think so. :)</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, I think the point Conquestor is trying to get at, is that from a very young age, parents tell their kids you can do anything you set your mind to, you can go anywhere you set your mind to, etc, and naturally a kid will aim for those schools that are considered to give you a better education and lead to better career prospects (rightfully or wrongfully thought).</p>
<p>With that in mind which they hear from their parents: kids take as many Pre-AP and AP courses that they can and strive to get "As" in them (when they could have taken dinky regular courses), are the top of their class, buy and practice from commercial study guides to take SATs and SAT IIs, get involved in every extracurricular activity w/officer positions, do sports, etc. Then all of a sudden senior year, scrap all that as I really didn't mean it, and go to a local state college, where even the laziest student who didn't even do half of what the hardworking kid did got in.</p>
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Then all of a sudden senior year, scrap all that as I really didn't mean it, and go to a local state college, where even the laziest student who didn't even do half of what the hardworking kid did got in.
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<p>There are some public and semi-private schools that are extremely difficult to get into (far more difficult that most expensive private schools). Equally the are expensive private schools where an open checkbook and a pulse can still get your kid in. The price of the school has little to do with the quality of the education one receives there or the caliber of student that gets accepted there.</p>