<p>Magicmonkey, you're missing the point... in fact, I don't think you refuted a single point I have made. </p>
<p>My main point was that the African Americans, precisely as was the case with the Jews, Irish, and Asians, can counter their poverty today simply by pushing for education. Are there differences between the particular circumstances the Blacks endured as compared to those the Jews, Irish, and Asians endured? of course there is. You are absolutely correct here. </p>
<p>But the fact of the matter remains, as the examples you yourself brought up cealrly demonstrate, that the African American community must take initiative in improving its own lot... they can't keep blaming the 'white devil' and follow the creed of Jessie Jackson and 50 cent. Is their situation difficult? are there obstacles in their way? undoubtedly yes. But the same held true, to no lesser extent, for the aforementioned minorities who now prosper in this country. Very simply, when the Black leadership starts conveying the message that education is key and when Black parents push their kids to stay in school - then you will see change.</p>
<p>Secondly, you bring up the whole "vicious circle" thing again.
Poverty DOES NOT have to mean ignorance. Again, to bring up a perfect counter-example, the Jews, Irish and Asians were DIRT POOR and yet managed to strive for excellence and rise to the top.</p>
<p>So until the Black community (AT LARGE) stops whining and starts taking its own destiny into its hands, I would appreciate it if their unqualified kids stay off Harvard yard.</p>
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<p>I stopped paying attention to this thread because you are debating on AA. That's not what I wanted. I mentioned I'm black, and all of sudden, you talk about AA and not my chance. There's racism here on CC board if you don't notice it. When the poster says he's white, you answer his question and give him advice. When the poster says he's black, you talk about stupid AA.</p>
<p>lol... OP, just look more closely, ppl have been stating on ur chances, they're GOOD!!! and yes, there is racism on the CC board, cos some ppl dont acknowledge that asians/whites r treated differently, in a negative way...</p>
<p>none of us are professionals...NO idea how admissions people deal with deaf applicants. and who knows how they evaluate minority applicants (no offense, I'm just not sure how they look at that). So don't take any of the people on here TOO seriously.</p>
<p>Blech. No, Jews, Irish, and etc. all had IMPORTANTLY different circumstances. It was the way America evolved that allowed them to gain ground. The Irish didn't one day say, "Hey, all of us Irish need to start getting an education." Social and economic circumstances allowed this to happen over time along with the degradation of the belief in Irish inferiority common among other Euro immigrants." Nearly every person in America has some Irish in them, which is why the belief in Irish inferiority couldn't stand up; nobody is going to purposely treat themselves subpar because of their ethnicity. Other immigrants were largely forced to accept the Irish, at least over time, because there were so fricken many of them. Blacks on the other hand are far less integrated. I promise that if 60% or more of the American population was part African American, then we wouldn't be having this debate because blacks would be just like the Irish are now: ingrained in everyone.</p>
<p>Orrican, my post had everything to do with your belief that poor blacks as a whole should be able magically jump up and WILL themselves out of poverty. There's your idealistic view that nothing is stopping african americans from getting out of their rut, and then there is reality. Strong work ethics don't come from nothing, and they certainly don't come from being raised in ignorance by parents with a 7th grade education who don't care about you or your advancement in life. Middle-class parents tell their kids to get a good education so they can get a good job with benefits. Poor people teach their children to have all the kids they can so to collect as much welfare as they can. See a difference?
Obviously other ethnicities went through tough times, but the foundations of their poverty aren't the same as those of blacks or hispanics. When Irish and Jews started out they had only basic jobs with little education, but so did everyone else. Slowly, over generations and generations, they created the American middle-class most of us live in now. Each generation got a little bit more affluent, but they didn't just jump up and start going off to colleges</p>
<p>I am not a supporter of affirmative action but I, along with a lot of other people, recognize the economic reasons behind people not pursuing further education. And, yes, poverty DOES mean ignorance. Why? Because nine times out of ten, people live like they are raised. You cannot apply solutions stemming from idealistic standards to real-world problems.</p>
<p>"Strong work ethics don't come from nothing, and they certainly don't come from being raised in ignorance by parents with a 7th grade education who don't care about you or your advancement in life. Middle-class parents tell their kids to get a good education so they can get a good job with benefits. Poor people teach their children to have all the kids they can so to collect as much welfare as they can. See a difference?"</p>
<p>Exactly my point, magicmonkey!!
I am not blaming the kids; I am blaming their parents and leaders! If their attitude were to improve, their economic status (over a generation or two) would follow suit. A parent doesn't need a Phd to encourage his/her kids to learn. You just need a basic attitude change, which I believe must first come from the leaders of the African American community.</p>
<p>You're basically arguing that Blacks, to this day, are kept down by racism. That, my friend, is complete bull. An educated African American who proves himself will go far in life, and there's a sea of examples to illustrate that. Blacks are not kept down by racism. They're being kept down by themselves.</p>
<p>Poverty, moreover, despite what you may believe, is not an incurable disease. Obviously, it puts one at a vast disadvantage. But again, were teh Jews and Irish any richer than the blacks when they came here?</p>
<p>Orrican, as a black female I'll argue that you are partially correct. Blacks are kept down by racism and our own attitudes towards education. I completely agree that the black community needs to re-evaluate it's priorities (stop focusing on raising rap artists and star athletes and start focusing on raising future doctors, businessman, etc.). But even when you get past all that, racism still exists to hold blacks back.</p>
<p>My father, who went to college and graduate school, had the hardest time finding a job. He applied for positions, that specified that graduate degrees were necessary, only to find that they were given to less qualified (read: no graduate degree) white men. When he finally did get a job, he would have to hand over some of his accounts to his white counterparts because the companies he was working with preferred a white worker (who was seen as more honest) to my father. </p>
<p>So yeah, I agree that the major issue with African American culture today is that we don't place enough emphasis on education, but racism still plays a part (albeit a smaller/more covert role than 40) years ago</p>
<p>And to speak to your last statement, when the jews and irish came to America they were not enslaved for over 200 years and then only allowed to get second-rate jobs for another 150 years. Although the Jews and Irish may have been treated badly here, they were not treated as badly as the african americans. (And notice I discussed Jews and Irish in America, not in Europe. I realize that the Holocaust happened.) Thus, they did not face 350 years of discrimination in their quest to overcome poverty.</p>
<p>No I am not arguing that blacks are held down by racism. What I am saying is that blacks haven't had enough time to overcome their legacy of poverty and ignorance in America. </p>
<p>Who do you think the parents and leaders are?? Once, they were the same kids we're "not blaming" today. People don't suddenly get more intelligent just by being adults. And the leaders who do display the correct attitude such as Bill Cosby always get shouted down by self-serving bastards like jesse jackson or sharpton, or even hippy college kids like what happened at Berkeley. </p>
<p>You're right about an educated African American working hard and being able to get far in life. The problem isn't that they cannot accel once they are educated, it is that they cannot get passed their broken upbringing to be educated in the first place.</p>
<p>No, the irish and jews weren't any richer when they came to America but it still took them well over a hundred years to get to living decently (on the whole). Also, the paths of Irish American progress and African American progress didn't start at the same point in history. The Irish started their process during the Industrial Revolution (in America). The African Americans started theirs about one hundred years later. So, of course African Americans won't have made as much progress as the Irish.</p>
<p>hotpiece,
First off, i'd like to shake your hand (in cyberspace lol) for agreeing with me and drawing criticism on your own group. Few have the self confidence to do so.</p>
<p>And yes, the Jews and Irish were not enslaved in America, but did they come here from candyland? no. For centuries the Jews of Europe suffered expulsion, persecution, and pogroms. The Irish suffered British colonial rule as early as the 17th century. Both groups were kept down. So while they never suffered as much as the Blacks in America, they underwent as equally horrific an experience. Later, at the end of the 19th century, when both Jews and Irish immigrants came here in large numbers, their experience was not that far from what the Blacks were experiencing AT THAT TIME. </p>
<p>So you could safely say that the Blacks, Jews, and Irish underwent essentially the same crap. Their experiences line up. Then why the great disparity in success rates? attitude and culture, as you yourself agreed.</p>
<p>I would definitely agree with you, however, that racism still exists today. But is there no anti-semitism in America? I assure you, there truly is.</p>
<p>And magicmonkey,
No, the Irish didn't start their progress fully until the end of the 19th century. I vaguely recall "Irish need not apply" signs well into the fourth quarter of the 19th century. And as for the Jews, who came here mostly in the 1880's, progress didn't start any earlier than for the Blacks either.</p>
<p>Of course there is anti-semitism. there is discrimination against every group. and this discrimination has probably held back members of that group. </p>
<p>But as you say, when the Irish and Jewish came here at the end of the 19th century, they could start anew to make money, etc. (although they were probably discriminated against). However, the african americans had another 60 years of segregation to face. So really African americans were not able to start anew (meaning that there was no legal discrimination) until the mid-1960s. Meaning, it has only been 40 years since African Americans were awarded the same luxury as the Irish and the Jews. In saying that, I realize that the Irish and the Jews have also experienced discrimination in this country, but as I said earlier, every group is discriminated against in some way.</p>
<p>ok, the Blacks didn't get the opportunity to succeed until the Civil Rights movement, I'll give you that. I suppose we can all agree here that the African American community's difficulty arises both from external and internal factors, the external being the remnant of racism, and the internal being a detrimental attitude that serves as an obstacle in the way to success in a modern society, where education is key.</p>
<p>But is affirmative action the answer here? if the weakness of African Americans is an inability to get on the right track at an early age, then that is where the solutions have to be applied. Affirmative action at the collge level is like cutting a weed instead of rooting it out; you have to treat the core of the problem, not its symptoms. All that added to the pure fact that affirmative action is amoral and racist (and uncapitalistc) in and of itself.</p>
<p>A more viable, more effective, and more moral solution would be increased funding for education systems in struggling communities, along with a pro-education campaign (which our friends, Jessie Jackson and the gang should certainly have the integrity to lead off) to encourage young kids to read and watch Sesame street instead of "Get Rich or Die Tryin' ".</p>
<p>Let's face it, life is hard. Many minorities faced adversities (yes, to varying degrees) and each and every one can prosper as a group. The key to this, however, is to take a hold of your own destiny and fight for your welfare (and by welfare I don't mean the nice check that comes in the mail every week :) )</p>
<p>One thing I think some people are ignoring is that AA, unlike welfare, does not risk helping the welfare cheat or the drug dealer. At the very least, the students benefitting from any kind of AA (even those in third and fourth tier state school) have graduated from high school and kept out of trouble, which, sadly, already eliminates a significant number of URM 18 year olds. I was initially confused when a friend of mine told me that his graduating class had 500, but his school had 3000 students. Then he explaianed that while the Freshman and Sophomore classes had 1000 students each, since they were required by law to attend school through age 16, half of the students dropped out afterward.</p>
<p>At elite schools, those admitted based on AA must have a demonstrated record of success. We can argue whether or not this success should or should not qualify them for the specific school they attend, but in general, this will be a high achieving student. In order to have achieved, this student must either have parents who are committed to their education (this does not necessarily mean that the parents themselves are educated) or must themselves be highly motivated, or (most likely) a combination of both. </p>
<p>So, whether or not you agree with AA, claims that it is rewarding and even encouraging laziness doesn't really hold up.</p>
<p>You guys are making all the arguments against affirmative action FOR me! I really barely have anything to say. I do have to address the issue of hotpiece's parents, though. I think the fact that hotpiece's father had difficulty getting a job did not occur because of racism, but instead because of...DUN DUN DUN...affirmative action! Think about it, if you're an employer and you know that colleges and universities (some of the most liberal places in America, by the way) freely give spots in their classes to underqualified people (Yes, ICarGirl, this DOES happen in ANY given school, but merely to a lesser extent at HYPS. If it didn't, cases like Grutter v. Bollinger never would have arisen), you might have legitimate doubts about whether or not a black man with a graduate degree really has the qualifications to do the job you're offering. This, of course, is patently unfair to black people who actually WERE qualified and as such, the incidental racism of affirmative action is born. QED.</p>
<p>And sorry pattycake, but there's no racism here on CC. Talking about Affirmative Action and its potential effects when you see a black candidate makes sense because it's actually relevant to their application, as opposed to a white/jewish/asian kid who's not likely to reap its benefits. Or are you suggesting contextually appropriate topics are an oppressive tool of whitey as well?</p>
<p>canaday, your argument doesn't make sense in the context of my anecdote. the job was not given to an equally qualified white male, instead it was given to a less qualified white male (he didn't even have the graduate degree that was supposedly required for the job).</p>
<p>I wasn't implying the guy was equally qualified. What I was saying was that affirmative action might have cast doubt on the legitimacy of your father's graduate degree, meaning that in the employer's mind the white man may have been equally qualified. Sorry for the misunderstanding.</p>
<p>Oh, and since we're using anecdotes, here's one of my own: My cousin, Michael, who lives in LA and is (like me) Jewish, has been turned down for countless jobs which he has been overqualified for because the employer "has to hire a black man." This has occurred everywhere from the private sector, in real estate industries, to government jobs. My point is that for every anecdote you have about racism, there's one other about reverse discrimination, which is why anecdotal evidence doesn't have much value. However, I do wonder where you and your father live, as racism unfortunately does vary with location.</p>
<p>As am I. I don't know what you think I'm misinterpreting, but let me assure you I am quite conscious of your position on the issue. We are both against affirmative action, hence why I write opinions which tend to agree with yours.</p>