My daughter wants to apply to medical school, again

A few thoughts to consider:

  • it’s time for her to do some more growing up.
  • the Bank of Mom and Dad needs to close up shop. A part time job isn’t going to cut it. Give her a deadline and tell her that after that date, the financial help is going to end. AND since she’s got the Bank of Mom & Dad bankrolling her lifestyle, there isn’t much financial motivation right now for her to get off of her butt and get cracking. For example, she could get a full or part time job as a surgical tech or a medical assistant…both of those pay actual $$ AND could be used to help bolster a med school application.
  • if she doesn’t get more healthcare experience, more volunteer work, etc., then she’s going to get rejected again.
  • Does she REALLY want to go to med school? Based on what you’ve posted, I’d have some doubts about how motivated she really is.
  • If she wasn’t prepared to “get a proper job” after college graduation, what WAS she doing in her spare time at college? Did she just assume that she’d get into med school?
  • her choice to not consider DO schools is dumb. But since she isn’t going to listen to you, she’ll have to learn that one the hard way.
  • PA schools require actual patient care experience. So her occasional volunteer stuff in college isn’t going to cut it if she wants to pursue PA school. But she’ll figure that out, too, if she decides to go down that road.
  • the smart thing to consider would be retaking organic chemistry to boost the grade above a C. For example, our local community college offers that class.

My kid without a degree at all is working almost full time at the moment to pay his rent and living expenses.

How many hours is she working? How much does she get paid? Other than insurance and cell phone (and tuition as he starts classes part time again), I don’t pay any of his bills.

But then don’t medical schools look at repeats and community college courses as negatives? Basically a lose-lose situation once a low grade is earned in a pre-med course.

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I agree with much of what’s been posted so far. If she really wants to become a doctor she should consider DO programs, and/or possibly a post-Bacc to improve her GPA.

Requirements for direct patient contact experience for PA school is onerous. I posted this on another thread recently, but PA school admissions is extremely competitive and the minimum number of patient-facing hours that many schools might show on their websites is far exceeded by successful applicants.

Median direct patient contact hours of successful applicants was 2,854 (M(t) which is median hours trimmed of top and bottom 10%), see detail below. Average age of matriculants was 25.2, which gives applicants some time to get these types of patient facing hours. Data from the 2020 (most recent) PAEA report:

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I’ll post a couple more of these from U Rochester so folks don’t have to google them. These two are more recent. You’ll see it’s a template of sorts. They look for the same things over and over again. Med schools aren’t looking for and don’t have to accept “rank and file” apps. There’s a reason fewer than half who apply, often to multiple schools, get accepted anywhere. Be someone your future med school can write about.

From the links:

This year we received 5669 completed applications from AMCAS that we
reviewed for approximately 70 spots in our incoming class. A further 38 of you
entered through our special matriculating programs:

This year we had approximately 5900 applications from
AMCAS that we reviewed. … Our admissions committee interviewed 711
of these applications, for 105 places in your class.

And things like this - so many similarities, along with “find something that’s you” that they can write about:

Most of you graduated with Latin Honors, including a large number who
were Summa or Magna Cum Laude. Additionally, many of your class graduated
Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Tau Beta Pi and or with other departmental, and
university or national honors society and recognitions. These awards show that
you’ve collectively had an incredible academic prowess and we are humbled
before your accomplishments. But in addition to these well-known awards, we
recognize that you have had even more profound accomplishments, many that
don’t come with certificates or applause, but still impacted the lives of
communities, organizations and people all around you. Congratulations.

Your desire to deeply and meaningfully work in marginalized communities
has led you to work in AmeriCorps, Teach for America and as Jesuit Service Corp
members. More than 50% of you worked or learned in an overseas setting. From
Sudan to Taipei, Japan to Bangalore, Greece to Nicaragua you have been impacted
by what life looks like outside the confines of your hometowns and you are wiser
for it. The University of Rochester celebrates your interest in a wide lens of
experiences and we hope an equal or greater number of you continue your global
reach in this phase of your transformation.

In order to be accepted to the University of Rochester, it is a must that you
have worked outside your comfort zone; your class has shown heart and passion
surpassing the average applicant. Many of you have worked with agencies in our
inner cities, refugee camps and prisons, reaching out to those who suffer the
greatest disparities in health care in our world. All of you have volunteered in
various outreach opportunities, alternative summer breaks, health care brigades and
other college or religious sponsored organizations and have made an impact on the
health and wellness of communities. If there is a hospital clinic or possibility to
help someone, someone in this room has volunteered in that opportunity and more
importantly, have LOVED working within it. The Class of 2025 you have reached
out to those people in need, regardless of pandemics, lock-downs, distance or
personal hardship encountered.

You have really unique interests and accomplishments that display heart and
soul to this class. To name just a few: you have built houses in Nicaragua, worked
in reforming criminal justice systems, accompanied those with terminal illness to
their deaths, joined teams for disaster relief, and supported housing insecurity and
homelessness. You have worked to distribute Covid 19 vaccines at your own peril,
been asylum advocates, led clinics such as Planned Parenthood and served our
LGBTQ community. You have served communities not only in English, but
Spanish, Chinese and Arabic.

Put the year into Google and read several others if you’re looking for inspiration, then go out and do something knowing even if you aren’t interested in this med school, most are similar in what they look for in a successful applicant.

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Did the “T20 private university” have a pre-med committee? If so, did it advise her what her chances of admission to a medical school were, and did it give the highest endorsement it could for her in the committee letter to medical schools?

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This is key. A DO is equivalent to an MD. IMO OP’s daughter may have been too selective in what schools were applied and may have only applied to MD programs. There is absolutely no reason DO schools would not accept her with those stats.

In fact, my brother-in-law had a low 3.x GPA and a 31 on the old MCAT (equivalent to a 512 on the new) and was accepted into Rowan’s DO program. He just finished med school a few years ago. He is now a Doctor (DO) making 350k a year. While I don’t know the exact numbers we were just discussing this over Thanksgiving with my son worried about his grades and my brother-in-law also pointed out that his wife had a lower MCAT score but a higher GPA and she is also a Doctor (MD).

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This explains a lot. It’s not a lack of grades or insufficient MCAT score.

Also, many people are suggesting/claiming sufficient work experience in medical is needed. Both my brother-in-law and wife went directly into Med school with no such experience.

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I’m curious to know if this is common for DO schools @WayOutWestMom or anyone else? It could be helpful for future doctor wannabies to know if so.

Otherwise, I wonder if it’s more due to the highly competitive nature of med school now vs even a decade ago, with one Med School admissions guy telling us he’d be unlikely to be accepted now vs “his day.”

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FYI Google: “rowan do gpa mcat”

What are the average GPA and MCAT score for students accepted to the 2022 Class?
Students accepted to the 2022 Entering Class had a cumulative GPA of 3.65, a science GPA of 3.59 and an average score of 506 on the MCAT .

From Rowan’s Website:

What are the preferred GPA scores to qualify for admission?
Strong candidates should have a cumulative GPA of 3.50+, a science GPA of 3.50+ and an MCAT score of 500+.

Rownan’s “selection factors that the admissions committee will consider when reviewing your application:”

  • Undergraduate GPA
  • MCAT score
  • Clinical experience
  • Leadership experience
  • Service experience
  • Letters of recommendation
  • Personal statement

However:

Rowan’s School of Medicine evaluates candidates through holistic reviews. This means that the admissions committee will consider all aspects of your application when making their decision. There is no one specific factor that guarantees admission into the school.

I can personally attest my brother-in-law had no clinical experience, nor did his wife. Both went into Med school directly from undergraduate school. He went to Rowan. I don’t know where she went, but they met in Baltimore finishing their residency about 3 years ago.

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I’m not arguing about their experience. I’m asking those who know more about today’s expectations to keep my info up to date.

I was already aware that DO schools don’t “require” as high MCATs or GPAs (require in quotes because there are exceptions to the average). What I’m unsure of is if it’s common for average applicants to not need various medical experience today.

When it comes to med school, it’s getting tougher over the years to be a successful applicant.

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I understand your question. The “preferred” MCAT and GPA profile is their current and based on their 2022 admissions, per their website. I understand a lot can change over 10 years.

Also, I know he was accepted into 3 different med schools and chose Rowan for a few reasons, including lower cost and it happened to be local.

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I’ve always gotten really great medical care from DO’s and prefer them to MDs. In my experience, they seem to listen a lot more and have a more holistic/whole person perspective.

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That too can happen.

Sure, my daughter gained acceptance into a doctoral program in a (different) health profession directly out of college, after having been offered interviews at three. But…, when I had asked her a few months ago, those cases were 2 out of the annual 20 or so, making them those two the youngest of the cohort.

So despite such occasional outliers, someone would be well advised have a solid plan on how to demonstrate a clear commitment to the profession, by improving any weaker facets of their application while waiting for the next application cycle, possibly repeatedly – given that the acceptance percentages can be Ivy-ish.

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@Creekland DO schools are becoming as competitive for admission as MD schools…as more and more students apply. Family member here had very significant and recognizable volunteer thing, and worked as an EMT for three years. In addition, shadowed the same doctors for those same three years…and continued to do so even after DO school acceptance. I do know that DO schools require a student to shadow a DO…and there is some mechanism for searching where you live to find doctors who you can contact about this. And they don’t mean shadow one or two times…they want meaningful time spent.

The average age of starting medical school students is 25 or 26…so clearly many are taking (meaningful) gap years after undergrad.

I think the issue with this student is she did shadowing and volunteering in undergrad, and applied to medical schools and didn’t get accepted. BUT she didn’t continue to work to continue these things. If I am wondering why she is committed to becoming a doctor with this lack of initiative in the field, I’m guessing adcoms might wonder too. Medical school requires a huge commitment. Huge.

For those quoting stats on preciously accepted students, I believe the stakes have gone up everywhere for both MD and DO applicants.

Also as posted about MD schools, some DO schools have a mission that they expect students to want to fulfill. For example AT Still (one of the oldest and best established) asks at their interview if an applicant plans to do primary care in the area where the school is located. I’m sure they aren’t the only one that does this.

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ETA…I also think a lot of students apply to a combo of DO and MD schools. Plus wouldn’t you want your application to be as strong as possible? Having direct patient contact isn’t THE thing, but it is a thing that can make a difference.

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Rowan had over 6000 applicants and 288 admitted students. With those numbers I would do everything possible to strengthen my application, regardless of whether or not volunteering is necessary.

Not doing so shows immaturity, lack of drive, and a sense of entitlement, IMO (it is not my intention to sound harsh). This is especially true given that she was not accepted the first time.

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My daughter’s boyfriend got zero offers his first year applying to med schools. I think it was a wake up call for him.

His parents paid for an academic consulting firm to help him fine tune his applications, read his essays and do mock interviews. They told him things other people had, but I guess it was better coming from an outside source that wasn’t cheap. He applied to some different schools based on their reading of his fit. This time around he applied to a combination of DO and MD schools, and has one DO acceptance, one MD wait list and is waiting on the results of two interviews.

In the meantime, he upped his shadowing and has worked as a PCA at two different hospitals.

I am a firm believer in DO schools - my family doctor is a DO and is the best doctor I’ve ever had.

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I just started a thread in the pre-med area where a number of people post about various things. I asked if volunteering, patient contact and shadowing were required. Let’s see what that hive says!

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