<p>Why dont you let it go, consolation. Or better yet, go back to TN for a visit. Its changed a lot in 10 years. Perhaps MOWC will show you around ;) I was impressed when I visited a year or 2 ago. Count me in as another longtime reader who is used to much kindler, gentler, generally positive and helpful posts from you.</p>
<p>To the OP:</p>
<p>You did not mention what type of engineering you want to study. To hedge your bets, you may want to consider more the schools with the better overall engineering programs. The general consensus is that: Northwestern >> Rice > Vanderbilt. (Vanderbilt has especially weak engineering programs.) Others have already commented on their relative worth.</p>
<p>BTW, I feel partly responsible for starting the "Civil War" in this thread. I made a seemingly innocuous comment that Northwestern was considered to be more prestigious in the Northeast (than the other two schools) and some person or persons misinterpreted that to mean that prestige in the Northeast is all the matters or that the Northeast represents the entire U.S. or something along those lines. In any event, the ad hominem attacks go against the terms of service of this community forum and, more importantly, do a disservice to the OP.</p>
<p>"I have decided that it is deceptive to rely on percentages of students who go Greek to assess whether Greek life is a big part of the culture."</p>
<p>I strongly agree with this. At one university I attended, less than 30% of students joined the Greek system. Even so, the social life revolved around the fraternities in a big way. I found that not being Greek led to being socially excluded (this was one of several reasons why I left.)</p>
<p>Also, the percentage of students in the Greek system can be misleadingly low. For example, at this university, a lot of the students were outside the social mainstream and kept to their own subgroup of society. Others just weren't that outgoing. There was a significant population in technology majors which was far more separated from the campus culture than they should have been. These groups tended not to rush. As a result, at least half of students who weren't in one of these groups were formally part of the Greek system. Many of the rest could attend fraternity parties because they knew people in the houses. As a result, even with under 30% of students in the Greek system, social options were limited for someone who was outgoing and not completely outside the social mainstream.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To be brutally frank, Northwestern struck me as excessively white bread, pre-professional, frat-ridden, big-time sports oriented, and generally unintellectual.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Anyone who thinks NU is "big-time sports oriented" hasn't a real clue about NU.</p>
<p>While NU is in a major conference, the vast majority of the students don't obsessively follow the sports teams (a la Duke students w/ BB).</p>
<p>As for "white bread" - that's debateable, but NU is no more so than many other top private universities (plus, I would say LACs, overall, are even more "white bread").</p>
<p>Pre-professional - yeah, that's probably the most accurate description, but so are schools like Penn, Duke and Stanford.</p>
<p>Frat-ridden - yes, about 30% of the student body is involved in the Greek system, but one can go 4 yrs at NU w/o having much to do w/ the Greek system (and there is plenty to do - so it's not like one would be missing much).</p>
<p>Unintellectual - hmmm, I have had many a long nights talking away the time philosophically.</p>
<p>Really, not much diff. from talking to people who went to Harvard, Stanford, Duke, Penn, Vandy, etc.</p>
<p>Now, UoC may have more students who belong to the "quirky" intellectual mold - but that's about it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Fortunately, the northeast is not the whole country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But the West coast and Midwest also generally have the same outlook.</p>
<p>As for running - running during the Winter in Chicago is no big deal.</p>
<p>I did it all the time and that was before the benefit of Cold Gear apparel by UA.</p>
<p>OP, in post #8 I gave you the Vanderbilt Hillel stats. They are "fresh" as of a week and a half ago. ;) The general Hillel web site that's been cited (post #6) isn't always up to date.</p>
<p>"To be brutally frank, Northwestern struck me as excessively white bread, pre-professional, frat-ridden, big-time sports oriented, and generally unintellectual."</p>
<p>What's so bad about that?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, that particular visit is not the sum of my experience with NW or with NW students and grads, but fine. Have it your way: NW is all things to all people. Satisfied?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Consolation,
Please find me another "excessively white-bread, preprofessional, frat-ridden, big-time sports oriented, and generally unintellectual" school that has ever had 11 prestigious British scholarship winners (Rhodes, Marshall, Mitchell, Gates, Churchill) in the SAME YEAR. Okay, if not 11, how about 5 or even just 3? If you can't, you may want to keep your little experience to yourself.</p>
<p>If you want an "intellectual" atmosphere, stay away from Vanderbilt. Feel free to PM me if you want elaboration.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
The general consensus is that: Northwestern >> Rice > Vanderbilt. (Vanderbilt has especially weak engineering programs.)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know what general consensus you are referring to nyccard, but I disagree with that assessment. What's your source?</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you want an "intellectual" atmosphere, stay away from Vanderbilt. Feel free to PM me if you want elaboration.
[/quote]
Why not share what you know with everyone? Particularly if you have first hand information, having been a student or professor at Vanderbilt, or perhaps the parent of a student, such information would be valuable in the current discussion. I don't mean to seem pushy, but there are a number of CC posters who profess to know an awful lot about Vandy without ever having been there. Apologies in advance if you aren't one of them.</p>
<p>I realize that Vanderbilt isn't Yale or Swarthmore or the University of Chicago. But I've met a number of people (do faculty count?) who'd be startled to find out that one can't find an intellectual atmosphere at Vanderbilt, even if other "atmospheres" are also available.</p>
<p>Yes, PureAdvisory, do tell. Inquiring minds want to know!</p>
<p>frazzled1 and stockmom123, I appreciate the concern but I can assure you that I know Vanderbilt very very well. I'd like to keep my anonymity intact, but I would be happy to divulge any information I have via PM. And please note that I do not have very many nice things to say about the school for various reasons.</p>
<p>Phoenix, in case you are still following your thread:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Intellectualism: I don't see any mention in your posts about concern regarding the level of intellectualism, but in case you are worried, I will mention that Vanderbilt's faculty and administrators like to mention that their undergraduate program requires more non-engineering courses than most e-schools. Many of their undergrads have double and even triple majors in fields in CAS and even in Blair (music school). This is easier to do for some engineering fields than others, and in part it will depend on what sort of course background you bring to the school. </p></li>
<li><p>Ranking engineering programs: students who are extremely concerned about the ranking of engineering programs should be considering schools like Purdue, Univ. of Illinois, Univ.of Michigan. etc. Obviously, there is more to the choice of where to do undergraduate work than the rank of the engineering school. To the extent that rank reflects quality of faculty and the quality of interaction with faculty, opportunities for research and up-to-date facilities, rank can be useful, but when the rankings depend heavily on the reputation of the GRADUATE programs, it is a less useful benchmark. In fact, it is no secret that outstanding undergraduates find it a lot easier to garner attention and opportunities when there is less competition from graduate students. It is my opinion that prospective undergraduates should be spending some time reading up on the type of research being conducted, the source of funding for that research and the opportunity for undergraduates to get involved early on. </p></li>
<li><p>Like the poster frazzled, I find it frustrating that so many of the pronouncements on CC about Vanderbilt come from people with no experience with the school, or with impressions about the school that are a generation or two out of date. My son's opinion of the school (and mine) changed radically after two detailed visits, spent visiting with faculty and observing classes, inquiries about research opportunities and specific inquiries about coursework requirements for someone in his particular situation. All three of the schools you are looking at are top-notch. I suggest really digging into what each of them has to offer you, personally.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>^^^re point 3, above: the inquiries and investigations were my son's, not mine.</p>
<p>
[quote]
students who are extremely concerned about the ranking of engineering programs should be considering schools like Purdue, Univ. of Illinois, Univ.of Michigan. etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Depends. Northwestern's material science and industrial engineering & management science are ranked in the top-5, no worse than the three schools you mentioned. That said, I agree with you that grad ranking shouldn't be the be all end all factor.</p>
<p>^1. Actually all three schools require more liberal arts courses than many other e-schools. I agree with you that this is another way to see how preprofessional-oriented the schools are. An "excessively preprofessional" school wouldn't care and impose such requirement. At Northwestern, the theater students take at least 18 courses in liberal arts; they also have foreign language requirement. I don't know of any other top-theater program that requires that many courses in liberal arts. The university doesn't admit someone with theater talent alone, unlike most other top theater programs; the communication school (where the theater department resides) students have an average SAT of 1400, only 30 points lower than the university average. Conversely, "excessively preprofessional" students who care about only the practical training in theater and acting would not come to Northwestern when they see the curriculum. Journalism students are required to take over 70% (a whopping 32 courses) of their classes outside the journalism school; most journalism students are double-majors.</p>