Narrowing down school lists from a long distance

[compmom]

The main difference is the degree. So you want to focus on whether the degree offered is a BM or BA. Sometimes a school of music will offer both.

Conservatories, whether free standing or part of a college (Oberlin Conservatory for instance) and “schools of music” within universities/colleges offer BM’s and as I described above, 2/3-3/4 of the classes will be music classes, and there will be a lot of time spent in lessons, practicing and performing.

College and university music “departments” will generally offer a BA (1/4-1/3 classes in music) with or without any performance component, and extracurricular performance may be important. Lessons are often provided. As I mentioned, academic music can be a general music major or it can have strands, like composition, theory or technology.

Again, I would be curious to read your reaction to the Double Degree Dilemma posted near the top of the forum here.

It is very possible to do a BM and still have access to grad schools, and professional schools like business, law or medicine, though some prerequisites would have to be covered during undergrad or sometimes post-graduation. Your daughter does not need a back up plan. This is often a topic for discussion here and it would be good for her to know ahead of time.

That said, some students who love music also have another “passion,” whether classics or math or literature. They can try to double major, or do music on the side, or do a major/minor, or a double degree.The student examples in the Double Degree Dilemma are helpful in clarifying these choices.

If the grad student teacher is not working on technique, that sounds like a problem. She may be happy with the teacher, I realize. It will be interesting to see what the summer brings!

[musicprnt]

I wouldn’t worry so much about the labels, I haven’t heard of anyone getting their nose bent out of joint having their program called a conservatory or a school of music, basically it is a label, the Biennen school of music at Northwestern is a performance program that is indistringuishable from what an NEC or any of the other schools generally labelled as conservatory have. Usually the big difference between the stand alone schools called conservatories and schools of music in universities is the adminssions process, with a conservatory you generally audition there and get in, academics matter little to none, whereas with a lot of the music programs within universities (ie like U Mich, Northwestern, USC) you apply to both the music school and the university as a whole and academics matter there (though music students going for a BM are given something of a break, how much depends, also depends from what i can tell on whether they plan a dual degree or not). Oberlin is kind of an odd one, you can apply to Oberlin conservatory alone (assuming you want to do just a BM degree), you only need to apply to both if you want to dual degree I believe. Bard is the opposite, they require all their students in the music school (conservatory, ie the land that Leon built) to dual degree, it is a 5 year program (which is common with dual degree, it is very difficult to finish a BM/BA or BS dual degree in 4 years).

My take on the dual degree as a ‘backup’ is that it is fine, if the kid really wants to study something else, but that when kids do this it often is a self fulfilling prophesy, because IME/IMO the load of doing a dual degree takes away from the music side with a lot of the kids who go that route (not going to claim my sample size is large, it obviously isn’t, but my son’s network of kids is relatively large, and also what we saw before college with the pre college program he was in, the kids who went ‘academic’ had their music abilities tail off for the most part).

The other thing is, what would the dual degree be in? A lot of ba/bs degrees don’t exactly give you a direct path to things, for example a bs in biology or chemistry isn’t going to lead to much over other degrees, and if the kid majors in a liberal arts area, like English, it no more prepares a kid to get a job then a BM degree alone would, and I am speaking as a hiring manager when I say that.

If she thinks she may want to go to law school, for example, there is no such degree as ‘pre law’, I looked at what is required to get into various law schools, and they require an undergraduate degree, you need a good GPA, have to do the LSAT and get a good score on it, plus letters of recommendation and a personal statement from what I can tell. So your D could get a BM degree (at a conservatory or school inside a university) alone and do just fine, the only question would be what do you need to prep for the LSAT, what classes would you need to take, and she likely could do that anywhere, along with taking an LSAT prep course (a friend of my son’s who just graduated with him, a pianist, from NEC is going to law school at BU in the fall with a full ride tuition package, I believe he also got into several high level law schools but BU was a great financial package). With medical school, pre med basically is taking a package of classes like chemistry, organic chem, bio,zoology and some math courses (least that is what I recall), if in a university she could likely take those while doing a BM, or could take them after graduating at programs designed to fi ll in the gaps a pre med kid needs.

[musicprnt]

The last posts brought some clarity to the situation. To be honest, hearing the teaching situation, I would be very, very careful about the level of teaching she is getting, a master’s student in instrumental music may be a great player, but that doesn’t mean they have learned to teach what is required. Obviously I don’t know the school you are talking about (and it should not be disclosed publicly), but does her current teacher even know what is out there? Does he interact with teachers at other schools and know what the level of their student is like? I worry about that, and what level your D really is at, to be blunt (and again, keep in mind I am talking from my own background and what I have seen and heard, I would be saying this about anyone studying with a grad student, in part because my S is now one, and even at the level of playing he is at, the programs he has been through and will attend, I think he would doubt he could teach effectively yet). Basically getting into a decent BM program is going to rely on how well the teacher prepares the student for the auditions, and in the teaching in some part knowing what is required, understanding the often subtle things that make a difference. On violin I have seen supposedly high level teachers who think because these little prodigies are running around playing Tchaikovsky or puke the Beethoven concerto when they are 11 and 12 the key to success if accelerating their students to the high level concertos as soon as possible, and it is a disaster for a number of reasons IMO.

One thing I would highly recommend is see if one of the professors at the school would be willing to do an evaluation on your D (you would likely have to pay for this, but it is worth it), to see where she is in terms of her progression, what her weak points are, what her strongs points are, and see what they think. These are the people who determine admissions, and you will know how effectively (or not) her current teacher has been, they likely will know what is required at their and other programs and give an idea of where she stands. If they come back and say she is on track, she is where they would expect, then you know that her current teacher is preparing her well and know she has a chance if she decides to audition for a BM program. On the other hand, if the teacher points out issues, especially with fundamental technical issues (like on violin, Intonation, which can be a killer on auditions), then you may need to reevaluate who is teaching her. One of the things reading the posts on here that concerns me is it sounds like your D’s current teacher may have tracked into this one program and from reading the post, it sounds like he didn’t even go through the audition process (?), and that could lead him/her to think they are teaching correctly and may not be.

The other valuable thing you daughter can do is when at the other programs, listen to the recitals and playing of the other kids and judge herself against them. I am not talking the outlier, the kid who has artists management or is at some top level prep program or whatnot, I am talking against the top level of students there (reason I say that is depending on the program, the level of playing may be wider at some programs; at a place like Meadowmount or Aspen the playing level is very, very high, a music festival at another place may have a wide range of students). If she listens to the top level of kids, she likely will be able to get an idea of where she stands with things.

One of the values of summer programs, or where she is planning to work with the professors in the current program, is that that exposure is valuable, it is where teachers meet prospective students and where teacher and student see if they can work together. More importantly, while kids audition ‘cold’ all the time, and get into programs and studios, it is a lot easier if the teacher already has been exposed to the kid and liked them. My S auditioned at Juilliard for grad school to get into the studio of a very tough teacher, and got in I suspect in part because they had seen my son previously coaching a chamber program he was in). On the other hand, at the school he is going to, he hadn’t seen the teacher before but did a sample lesson with him, and I think that helped a great deal with the outcome, a 10 minute audition doesn’t give that complete a view of a student, so any doubts get magnified I suspect, but if they have seen the kid outside an audition (among other things, without the nerves of audition), they have a better picture.

Again, please don’t take what I am saying as a knock on her current teacher , or how she is learning, these are just based on my experiences with my son and my exposure (in his case with the violin) to what goes on and trying to suggest ways to get a clearer picture to what to be honest is a very, very murky kind of thing, getting into BM programs, it is so subjective, so beholden in some ways to chance, that it makes getting into an Elite academic program look easy in some ways. My take on this has grown over the years, and that is in a murky process like this, any glimmers of clarity you can get or edges you can get help a great deal, what is the old expression, in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king…smile

[compmom]

Musicprnt, the terminology difference between conservatory and school of music means less than the difference with “music department.” It is important to point out the differences between a BM and BA that that entails (along with the admissions subtleties you describe).

An article was just posted from Forbes on arguments for a music major that might be interesting.

Music majors, whether BM or BA can certainly apply to law school and as a group, I have read that music majors have the highest admit rate to med school

[fivethirtyfive]

I phrased it sloppily regarding technique. He doesn’t “miss things” as much as … picks a thing at a time to focus on due to dd’s late start in this game. When she plays for a competition or master class, there is always something new to work on. Posture, positioning, etc. there are different “schools of thought” for much of this and her teacher - and the professors she’s worked with - says she should just adjust to whoever is teaching her because some professors are fussier than others. (Most of what dd explains to me sort of washes over my brain but doesn’t absorb. I focus on the logistical/financial stuff. She’s driving the talent/practical stuff. DD would likely dive into a lengthy conversation with me about how her teacher is very technical and driving her crazy with his rigidity on the topic. I dunno. lol)

I hear what you are all saying re:her teacher. But I cannot reiterate enough the desert we are in as far as availability. I will make contact with one of the newer professor for an evaluation of sorts and perhaps discuss options for additional classes with dd. DD will NOT be able to get regular classes with this professor, though, because they do not offer them. Period. DD knows kids who were previous students of these professors.

There are some non-university professionals who give lessons in the area, but their playing is sloppy, imo. They also all choose music FOR their students (when we hear any of their students playing, they are playing the exact same songs). DDs teacher encourages her to find pieces and then he evaluates them and helps her narrow down the list. Plus - the “professionals” recruit dd shamelessly and it’s off-putting. Her teacher plays beautifully and he’s truly a gifted teacher. We’re willing to risk his gaps of knowledge and will just have to do the research and legwork ourselves.

As far as dd’s playing level - she has traveled to a few regional/international competitions and has placed 2nd or 3rd in each of them against some excellent students. She hasn’t won, but those other students have been playing a lot longer than she has (but they don’t have her heart! or her pluck!), so she’s in the steady-goes-it improvement phase.

yes - true about law schools. DD just has cold feet still about fully committing to a BM. This year should be very helpful in her development. I think that fear will subside as she continues to gain confidence. She’s a beautiful instrumentalist - but always surrounded by people who’ve been playing since infancy - so her swagger is not quite fully developed yet.

[compmom]

I think that we are assuming that since a grad student is available, that grad student’s teacher is also in the area Often undergrads at a school like Yale study with grad students at the School of Music. If your daughter is progressing and loving working with this teacher, fine. I think the questions were about having access to her teacher’s teacher at some point.

It IS okay if she doesn’t want to do a BM. Some talented musicians do a BA, and sometimes not even in music. It’s just that she should say no to a BM for the right reasons, meaning, because of other interests. Not because she thinks a BM will limit her options. Does she have some other area(s) of “passionate” interest?

Socially, a BM at a college or university versus freestanding conservatory may appeal to her more if she is conflicted.

Too bad music (like ballet) can have such a hierarchical feel. She is doing amazingly well. And has years to blossom. And there are many paths to follow (some musicians/composers on this board play or write mainly “new music”- does she have any experience in that wide range of pieces?)

She sounds like a great kid and I can understand why you value her!!

[fivethirtyfive]

@compmom DD also has an etsy business that she started last year that does extremely well when she has time to take the pictures and stock the “shelves” with the items she’s made. She also donates a portion of what she makes (the physical items) to children’s organizations locally. She considered a business degree until she realized that the MANY entrepreneur-type endeavors she has in mind could be accomplished with a few outlier classes in marketing, business accounting, etc. That’s her other big “passion.” She’s met with and talked with established makers in her market and could, realistically, go full-time with this as it is if she chooses to do so.

Now THAT “passion” is something I am knowledgeable about and have been able to help her with as needed! lol This music stuff, though… working on learning about it.

(Her entrepreneurial spirit is Reason #1 I can see her making a success of her musical endeavors. She is one self-motivated cookie.)

[compmom]

Is she a photographer or is she selling something else that she photographs for the site? She certainly is a go getter, and that will serve her well no matter what she does! I am impressed!

I also think she is wise to understand that she can be an entrepreneur with just a few classes in marketing. In fact, those courses are available in a variety of ways. In fact, conservatories now have classes in entrepreneurship as well.

[musicprnt]

I hear you about the desert of teachers and I hope it didn’t seem like I was criticizing the decision to study with a grad student, it always comes down to the best options you have. Even if she can’t do regular lessons with the teacher, an evaluation of where she is is important, having an outside opinion, just to make sure she is on track. Every teacher has a different approach, it could be her teacher studied with someone who was a total bear about technique, or the opposite, they feel like their teacher didn’t stress it enough…and it can be rough, my sons teacher in high school used to harp on him with his intonation, in the time since he has had several high level teachers/mentors who know her tell him her problem wasn’t technical, but artistic, ie the kind of intonation he used versus being sloppy…and that happens. It sounds like your D is a go getter and that is awesome, that can overcome a lot of things, because no teacher is perfect, the teacher that is great musically may not be as good with technical work, the teacher who is great with technique may not be great with musical stuff, and having the ability to teach yourself, fill in gaps, is huge (my S was looking at a teacher for grad school he really loved, who studied with a top level teacher at what is considered one of the top rated music schools in the world, and the guy who is really, really accomplished at a high level, told my S he taught himself, claimed he didn’t learn anything from his teacher (I suspect some of this is the Beethoven effect, ie where Beethoven claimed Haydn did absolutely nothing for him or influenced him…meanwhile listen to his early string quartets and his first symphony).

The reason for the outside view is that no matter how good her current teacher is, he is human and has is own limitations and so forth, and this may tell your D if there are things she needs to work on. Likewise, if she goes to summer programs, she may be able to work with teachers there and/or get them to give feedback, the more the merrier. My biggest concerns with any teacher is something that shocked me when I ran into it, that teachers, even those whom for example are playing professionally at a high level, may be woefully ignorant of what the outside music world is like, may not know the reality, or especially with some older teachers, assume it was like when they were students, and it isn’t.

@compmom;
Usually when they talk about a ‘music department’ IME, it is academic music more than playing, but yeah it can get confusing in the school offers a BA in performance in the ‘music department’.

[compmom]

I haven’t seen too many BA’s in performance in a music department though I have seen BA’s in “schools of music.” Some academic music departments (BA) like Harvard, for instance, have a “performance component” meaning credit for lessons and certain performance organizations, and a performance component in a few classes, mainly to, for instance, experience a historical period or theoretical concept, or perhaps an instrument from another culture. Princeton even has a “performance certificate” which is really no different from Harvard’s offerings. We would need to go school by school, one at a time, to really delve into the details of how much applied music in in a BA program, let alone the extracurriculars offered.

My only point originally was that a music dept. is different terminology from a music school (or conservatory) and usually connotes a BA program with 2/3-3/4 classes outside of music, and music classes that tend to be, yes, primarily academic though sometimes with some applied music in there as well.

Sometimes kids and families of kids who want to “study music” can save time by getting all this straight at the beginning. CC sure helped me way back when.