<p>Midmo, it would be great if there were a way to have unprepped scores. But just assuming some states are high pressure, so the kids all prepped seems a bit arbitrary. Around here, the prepping is still very much an Asian thing. Prep centers have Korean lettering on their signs & kids were even prepping for the CTY tests in elementary school. </p>
<p>Actually, in a weird way, being in NJ can take some of the pressure off. Will my D, who always scores super high on standardized tests, have a chance for NMF against kids who have been training for the test for years? Probably not. And while the NM designation can sometimes bring in some nice $$, that's not universally the case. So it seems like a real waste of effort & $$ to enroll her in a prep class. She's too busy anyway. And stubborn. Doubt she'd even agree to it. I've ordered the usual test guides, so she can do it on her own, though.</p>
<p>As long as you don't define "fit" as "prestige" or "ranking" there should be no problem. </p>
<p>If any of the big-scholarship-for-NMSF schools are a good fit, you are in luck. If not, there are many other choices. Maybe the NMSF designation will be enough to make him stand out the other 2200/B+ kids that didn't hit the PSAT cutoff in their state, or maybe it will be his interview, essay, ECs, recommendations, atheletics, etc.</p>
<p>Your S should be competitive for admission at many schools, and I suspect some will even sweeten the pot. I think the general consensus is that the most selective or highly-ranked schools don't care about NMSF, as all of the students they accept are outstanding when viewed as a total package. At the top of the USNews list, the odds are pretty slim for our non-superstar B+ kids, regardless of NMF or high SAT. Scroll down a few lines on the list, and the odds start improving. Scroll down a few more, and some of the schools will offer incentives to attract the 2200/2300 kids away from the higher-ranked schools. At least that's how it looks from my perspective.</p>
<p>The trick is figuring out what "fit" means for your kid and identifying schools of that meet this fit. And it ain't about picking number 38 over 42 or 54!</p>
<p>
[quote]
So really I think we have bastardized the SAT by letting kids take it over and over, having classes for those with a lot of cash, and using the very best scores from each sitting. What are we really measuring now? Endurance?
. . . It would be interesting to see the scores from one sitting and see if this changes the colleges middle 50%.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>sax, I couldn't agree with you more. ^ I have no idea when that started-- I don't remember universities doing this years ago; didn't they used to simply take the score solely from one sitting? Agree that it would sure be interesting to see the difference.</p>
<p>What's interesting is the SAT used to advise not to take the test over and over... With my first, he did well, not perfect and they sent a letter saying basically their data shows the average improvement on retakes about 10% or essentially one or two questions. Has this advice changed from them or is it outside influences?</p>
<p>As far as prep we bought for around $75 a book and study cd for self study. Where it helped was giving the kids an idea of the style of questions they asked not so much the content. Some tests can make a simple question extremely hard just by how they word it and human perceptions. A simple twist of a word in the sentence can make a true.. false. Our testing advice has always been slow down and read the question a couple times, but slowly. </p>
<p>Public schools really don't prep kids for the SAT tests. It is not part of their mission as defined by NCLB... a school district is reviewed by number of HS grads, not college enterants. If your funding depends on getting them out the door, how far they go after isn't their problem anymore.. this is an advantage private schools do offer over publics.</p>
<p>A really good snapshot into what some of the more driven kids do to improve their scores.</p>
<p>Colleges superscore as a marketing technique. "Wow, we have the highest SAT scores" implying they have the "smartest" students. Hogwash. </p>
<p>I have read that studying an SAT book does not signifigantly increase your SAT score. However taking an SAT prep class does raise your score. For whatever it's worth.</p>
<p>I think my daughter read over one of those SAT books, but not sure she even bothered to take a practice test from it. I think the books do give you tips on how to save time, so you have more time to go back over your answers. She did know about 3 people whose parents made them take one of those (very expensive) prep courses, after they got their scores back from taking it once. So these kids took the courses, and afterwards, at least 2 of them said that their scores did not change, and one person's score actually went down. I'm sure the parents were not pleased.</p>
<p>I would think that a student would have to be internally motivated in order to improve taking a test prep course. Obviously some kids find this a great challenge and probably even enjoy it; for others just drudgery.</p>
<p>Agree practice tests are great to learn the structure and time constraints of a test.</p>
<p>Even a 10% increase by those just repeating the test would be a 2000 to a 2200. </p>
<p>The million dollar questions : at what point difference is there really such a difference in students ability that it becomes evident in an educational setting? What is the SAT score really indicative of?</p>
<p>At the public high school my daughter attended, no one ever really prepares the students for the PSAT, in any way. They let them know the day before the test is to be administered and tend to really downplay its value or importance. (At least, that was the case when she attended.) I suspect most kids don't "study" for the PSAT, and they do say that the PSAT score is usually fairly close to the SAT score. At any rate, her SAT score did match her PSAT score, interestingly. I do think the SATs are of value; certainly, a single score in one sitting is of more value than taking the highest scores from multiple sittings (in my opinion). </p>
<p>I really do think that the SAT gives an idea of one's abilities and aptitude. I know the College Board doesn't like to compare it an IQ test, but I can believe that looking at individual IQ's, one could pretty much determine what one might make on a test like the SAT, based on IQ. (That comment should stir up some controversy.) I do think that the SAT (in part) tests one's ability to absorb information (and how well he or she retains and can use that information). Obviously, it also indirectly tests how students work under pressure and time constraints. Based on how well some kids do on the SAT as 7th graders, this test really does measure some level of aptitude. Just my 2 cents, based on nothing more than my opinion. ;)</p>
<p>I agree with Jack, par. 2, based on personal experience with my three kids. Due to the vagaries of our public school system we found it necessary to have all three tested for the gifted program in order to have a fighting chance at a decent education. I've known their relative IQs since each was 4 years old. All three tested gifted (140 + was the program rqt), but they had three different scores and have followed a track that fell in line with those scores. And no, it wasn't parental expectation, because those differences were apparent long before they were tested, and none of their teachers ever knew their scores, neither did the PSAT people or the ACT people, and none of them prepped for any of their standardized tests.</p>
<p>The high scoring sib was NMF and would have made it in the highest score cut off state. A lot of the colleges that child applied to asked for the PSAT score on the application. I assume this allowed the school to judge whether you really were what they wanted (ie, maybe they'd take the 230, but not the 209).</p>
<p>fwiw, as to the OP, being NMF may get your kid $$ in subtle ways such as being the factor that the committee uses to break a tie for a scholarship that isn't designated NMF, but there are only 2 left and only one kid has nmf, so it goes to them. That sort of thing.</p>
<p>There seems to be a good deal of misunderstanding regarding what is going on with the SAT w/r/t repeat testing or review and coaching.</p>
<p>I share with you a few observations, based to a great extent on CB research that used to be on their website (that they now charge for if you can find it...).</p>
<ul>
<li><p>regarding repeat testing: scores go up, but not because of a practice factor. Rather it is because of age. It has been known for years that scores tend to go up significantly as kids take the test as they get older. Some of this comes from following the talent search kids, some from other data. At any rate, the older a kid is when (s)he takes the test, the better they do. Also keep in mind that you will always hear talk about the big rises in scores but not the drops. And a lot drop. </p></li>
<li><p>prep and coaching? It is assumed these days at least for applicants to the better schools that they will have prepped been coached.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>So the only losers are those kids that come from backgrounds that lead them to be unaware of this stuff.</p>
<p>newmassdad: Thanks for the post, but I have no misunderstanding with regard to the SAT. Obviously, kids who take it in the 7th grade will do better (~200 points better, on average, I believe, according to Duke TIP) when they re-take as a high school sophomore or junior. I was mainly talking about the kids who take it multiple times as a junior, and again as a senior (early). I doubt those scores change significantly.</p>
<p>Your comment that "assuming these days at least for applicants to the better schools that they will have been prepped been coached," well . . . some kids don't need prepping or coaching-- and do very very well on the SAT--in one sitting (gasp!)-- (and on most standardized tests, for that matter). Again, I think it has a lot to do with aptitude. I think this is especially evident when you see kids who walk in cold as 7th graders and come out with a perfect score, or close to it, on one or both sections-- especially so on the verbal section. The math score (as a 7th grader) should, in fact, improve more than the verbal through the years, since that really does cover some actual subject material that one wouldn't ordinarily get until later, (freshman year?). Again, just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>I really have no ax to grind here at all. I personally believe that the SAT correlates with innate aptitude, and no amount of coaching or prepping will do much to change a score. Certainly, that score will change from 7th grade to 11th grade, but this business of taking it multiple times as a junior and then again as a senior is silly and somewhat pointless. (Again, that's just my opinion.) I do think that if kids have never taken a standardized test like that before, then familiarizing oneself with the format can be useful. Some of the books give you tips on how to save time--which might also prove helpful.</p>
<p>Do any colleges ask for PSAT scores on their applications? I don't think the common app has space for it. I know I could be accused of over-valuing it, but it seems like it would be potentially useful information because it's more likely to be an unprepped-for test. In my son's case, both PSAT and SAT were essentially unprepped (he said he took the practice SAT test in the booklet SAT sends out to every registrant), and scores were virtually identical, even across the 3 sections.</p>
<p>rainmama, read my post. I don't remember the names of the schools that asked for the PSAT scores, but I do know some did. I think it gives very useful info to a school who wants more than just to inflate their NMF numbers. For example, if you come from a state where the cut off is 209, but you got a 232, they know you would have been competitive anywhere. Conversely, if you made NMF with a 209, you might not have gotten anything in New Jersey or New York. Then again, there is the kid from New Jersey who gets nothing from NM, but would have been NMF in, say, Mississippi (no offense, just thinking of that "thank god for mississippi" snl joke). All depends on what the college is looking for and the angle they are approaching from.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do any colleges ask for PSAT scores on their applications? I don't think the common app has space for it. I know I could be accused of over-valuing it, but it seems like it would be potentially useful information because it's more likely to be an unprepped-for test.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I haven't seen any evidence that PSAT scores are used externally for anything beyond NMSF. I have never seen PSAT scores requested on a college application, and everything I have read and heard has said that they are not used for college admissions. There is no mechanism for the colleges to obtain official scores, either. However, I have seen them requested for summer programs, etc. where the kid is applying before he/she might be expected to have taken the SAT/ACT. Maybe mercymom can look up the college apps that she remembers asking for them and shed some light on this. </p>
<p>According to Collegeboard,
[quote]
The most common reasons for taking the PSAT/NMSQT are:
...
to receive feedback on your strengths and weaknesses on skills necessary for college study. You can then focus your preparation on those areas that could most benefit from additional study or practice.
...
to see how your performance on an admissions test might compare with that of others applying to college.
...
to enter the competition for scholarships from the National Merit Scholarship Corporation (grade 11).
...
to help prepare for the SAT. You can become familiar with the kinds of questions and the exact directions you will see on the SAT.
...
to receive information from colleges when you check "yes" to Student Search Service.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it does a good job of meeting those goals. Especially the last one! ;) It gives students, parents, and GCs a predictor of SAT scores so that they can start thinking about which colleges might be admissions matches. I also think that if the SAT scores come in significantly lower than the PSAT scores, there is a good reason to retake the SAT. </p>
<p>As for being an unprepped test, there are PSAT prep courses offered for HS kids at our local CC, and at our HS the kids take it every year starting freshman year. I think they may even give a practice PSAT in class before the real thing. Clearly some kids are prepping more than others.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but this business of taking it multiple times as a junior and then again as a senior is silly and somewhat pointless.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Agreed. And the CB data would support this statement, with one caveat: Because of the effect of maturation, one would expect a rise in scores from jr. year to sr. year. Not huge, but significant. (seem to recall an average score rise of about 25 points per test, but it has been a long time. I could be high.) And this age effect seems to account for a good deal of the score rise claimed by test prep companies. The post previous to this has a link to an intereresting paper showing a rise in score of 14-15 points in math and 6-7 points verbal. So, a 20 point coaching effect rise and a 40-50 point age rise means the firms can realistically claim that if you do their coaching between your jr and sr year test dates, you can expect your score to rise by 70 pts! round up to 100 for marketing, and there you have it. Too bad it was time that worked its magic, not the test prep...</p>