<p>I was wondering if the experienced CC parents could provide some past experience/anecdotes about improvements in standardized test scores from one year to the next. The catch? S will do little, if any, preparation work. Trust me on this its not worth the battle. </p>
<p>Some background S is a Sophomore who has taken the PSAT and ACT. The PSAT because his school requires it, and the ACT in part because he finally wanted his loving parent to stop nagging him, and also because he had some mild curiosity about where he stood right now. Good results (88th percentile and 90th percentile, respectively) math much more iffy than other sections on both. But Im curious as to what kind of improvement students have seen based entirely on taking more challenging courses (AP English, Honors Algebra II, etc.) in the Junior year. As noted above, unless he inexplicably develops a streak of academic competitiveness I dont anticipate that he will do much, if any, test prep before the PSAT/ACT/SAT next year and into the Senior year. Well, that may not be entirely true I asked him to make some effort on the PSAT just to see if he could get to the NMF level (as a favor to the person who will eventually be paying his tuition), and he agreed to look through a couple of prep books over the summer. But thats about it. </p>
<p>Any experiences from the experienced parents (or lurking students) would be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>I think there is something to the idea of natural progression. Neither of my kids did any test prep. Well, I think the day before the NMF PSAT taking, they each did the practice test in the book. That's about it. With two PsATs and one SAT, D went up 190 points overall. S stayed almost the same with two PSATs and one SAT, but with the second SAT, shot up, and ended up with a 90 point total rise (he started much higher than she had.)</p>
<p>We never pushed test prep. It did hurt S on SAT 2s, but he survived it. I would just suggest looking over some practice tests to know what to expect, rather than trying to push him to learn content. I would also suggest urging him to read as much as possible. That was my kids' real test prep.</p>
<p>I do believe that simply with TIME itself, the scores improve. However, with both my kids taking the SAT twice, a month apart from the two tries, just in that month, they went up 100 points. I think overall they went up 200 points from the first practice "trial" six months before taking the real thing. What the thing is, is that although over TIME the score should go up for one year to the next, your son could STILL do the most minimal prep. My kids each did at least four real practice tests. That alone increases the score as you are practicing taking the test. IF he did JUST that, it might add to the score. That is not alot of time. That means a few times between now and the test date, sitting down for a trial test....even if he does not do all three hours in one sitting, he still could do half in a sitting and half in another and time it. </p>
<p>For the PSAT, my kids did not prepare. They took the practice test in the booklet to familiarize themselves with the actual test. I know my oldest probably went up 300 points from that test to the SAT one. My younger child never took the PSAT (had to go out of town at last minute so missed it). She took the SATs twice at the end of 10th grade, once in April and once in June. I only know that she went up 100 points between those two sittings as my other daughter did between her two spring sittings at the end of junior year (but also went up another 100 points from a trial test in the fall of junior year to get a base line). So, I hear your son on not wanting to prep. I think he will improve with the passage of time and challenging courses. However, there STILL is a skill in taking this actual exam. For example, my older child, a straight A student ranked first in her class....learned over that six month period from the time she did a trial test at home until she did the real SAT later in junior year, JUST how to finish all the questions in the time limit which already increased her score (had been an issue for her). So, by practicing some tests, reading over a book with some pointers....really not talking a lot here, it helped her know how to take that actual test rather than teaching her any new skills or content. I think my other kid only did four practice tests at home from 10 Real SATs. For the SAT2, she skimmed through a review book and did two practice tests. If nothing else, it familiarizes you with the format and types of questions and generally, practice itself tends to help improve the score. I'm not talking taking any prep courses. </p>
<p>I would suggest if your son is at all willing that he just do a few of the Real SATs sometime between now and the test date. That is not a lot of stuff to do, not much more than prepping for a couple tests at school and LOTS is riding on this test. But again, his score is likely to improve with time alone. If you add in a little practice, that is an additional added boost. </p>
<p>Son scored lower on his first SAT than PSAT implied, with math dropping about 60 implied points to low 700 range. Verbal actuallly rose a bit, but overall he was around 50 points lower on first SAT try. Second try maxed the math, and even verbal went up to 700+ range, with was very good for him.</p>
<p>IF you order the review copy, which was available for some of the tests, it can give the kid a little confidence if he sees that he's simply making "dumb " mistakes in math, as opposed to not understanding what to do. Raise the focus level a little bit, and improve the score a lot. The overall swing from first SAT to second was 150 points or so, although about half of that came from stumbling on the first one, as opposed to true improvement.</p>
<p>S, whose college outcome we are all VERY happy with (Tulane, Distinguished Scholar $22K merit). had 660/600 in first SAT - right on line with his PSAT, not much improvement. His GC had expected the "natural progression" because he is a good student, and he took AP English, Honors pre-calc. in Jr. year. But it did not happen.</p>
<p>We then sprung for the test prep (I had always been philosophically opposed)- his jazz band schedule conflicted with the group sessions, so he did individual over the summer. His post-prep scores were 710/600. He, obviously, had no improvement in verbal, which was very surprising to me, as it seemed to me the prep was FULL of verbal stuff. Note: he did NOT, except when immediately prodded by me, do what the instructor said was most important: read, read, read - New Yorker, Economist, etc.</p>
<p>We had hoped for 100 or more points improvement, but were happy to break the 1300 treshhold. Our S is one of those whose test scores just don't match with his achievements (93uw/122w, top 10%). That does turn out to be the better combo than high SATs, low GPA; but it meant he was not HYPS material. He did apply to Stanford, as I am a legacy and he really liked the school/fit with his interests. Did not get in. Fortunately, he was not one of those "I HAVE to get into HYPS" kids; he loved Tulane as much or more than Stanford, but did have some of that "if you get into HYPS, you gotta go there" feeling. Got in everywhere else (lower tier 1 schools). Hope that helps.</p>
<p>My son also does not believe in test prep. He did take the practice PSAT and part of a practice SAT. That was about all the prep he did. His junior PSAT was a little over 20 points higher than his sophomore one, just enough to get him commended status. He was taking challenging math and Honors English, so I am sure that helped. </p>
<p>He took the SAT once, just barely made the goal he had set for himself, and said that was enough. His SAT II's were not at all high, but he didn't care. These scores, I am sure, are what got him waitlisted at Stanford and Oberlin. (He has great EC's and gpa.) But you know what? He doesn't care. He has been accepted into some perfectly fine schools and is happy. Since he really doesn't like to read--unless it is a music score, he would likely not be happy with classes at Stanford anyway.</p>
<p>So, yes, there will likely be some natural improvement. There probably could be more with preparation. However, just think of it as a sign that your son has better priorities than studying for a test that is really, in the long run, pretty meaningless.</p>
<p>You have to keep in mind that there is a certain irreducible random element to any test score -- the result of luck (guessing), which questions are asked, test site conditions, health and distractions, etc. And that random element can just as easily lead to a reduction in scores as to an increase when the test is repeated. As I recall, under the old scoring system that would lead to a confidence interval of about +/- 30 points around the original score. And this randomness is itself "natural."</p>
<p>But if you think of any given test score as being a product of both "real ability" and the random factors (which is sometimes called "error"), then you're really asking whether there is a "natural" increase in the "real ability" part of the test scores. The CEEB says "not much" (but perhaps some "error" can be reduced if a student is more familiar with the test, more relaxed on test day, etc.). But the test prep industry says "a lot," i.e., the tests can be coached, and that for the SAT II and ACT the coaching can improve the students' "real ability" (knowledge), while for the SAT I (in the old format) the coaching mainly improves the student's test awareness and wisdom. (Of course these are claims, and stats that really prove the efficacy of test prep are few and far between.)</p>
<p>This is all a long-winded way of saying that test scores can and do often go down, mainly due to the random error component; but they can go up either due to randomness (including luck) or due to students studying just a bit and understanding test strategy, being familiar with the types of questions, and so on. Even with no formal prep for a repeated test, the student might gain on the latter account then. But most likely the next scores are going to be within +/- 30 points of the original combined scores (perhaps 50 on the new SAT).</p>
<p>For my kids, there was enormous improvement from 7th grade to 11th grade, at a rate of about 100+ points a year. But my son essentially "topped" out on his PSAT and there wasn't any real room for improvement on his SAT I's or II's. My daughter, on the other hand, took her SAT I twice a few months apart, and her total the second time was within 10 points of her total the first time.</p>
<p>more reading and literature (incl. ap english) will definitely help on the verbal. But, the farther a kid gets from Alg I and Geom, the more basic math they forget, which tends to depress the math score. While the SAT does have 3-5 Alg II questions on it, they are pretty basic. Check out the SAT/ACT thread and you'll see kids getting an A in AP Calc, but struggling in SAT math (becos they forgot the basics).</p>
<p>In some circumstances, the SAT is not meaningless, as a great many merit scholarships depend upon it. If my son's SAT had been what was predicted by the PSAT, he would have missed out on $60,000 at one school and $80,000 at another. Turns out, he's not attending either, but that's a lot of money to leave on the table - especially if a family crisis occurs between testing and college. </p>
<p>While it is certainly correct to say that SAT/SAT II's are only portion of the application - it is a portion that can be improved by, say, a little work over the summer.</p>
<p>Iderochi -
my son's PSAT: 61m 67v 67w
the real deal: 670m 790v 780w (the SAT II)</p>
<p>He and I spent some time discussing vocabulary and analogies (old SAT), and he work on the math review himself. The writing score was helped by AP English, and a little work in the pr book and writing the essay long and to spec. </p>
<p>Since he wanted to use the Xiggi method and not spend money on prep, I did contribute to his car fund on a sliding scale.</p>
<p>Thanks to everybody for the input. I'm generally very comfortable with where he is and where he <em>probably</em> will be, based on all of the above.</p>
<p>ohio_mom: I did not mean that SAT scores are meaningless in college admissions, only that, in the overall scheme of the universe, they don't mean a lot. :-)</p>
<p>iderochi - Considering gender difference I'm not sure our experience is applicable. But here is D's history, for what it's worth:</p>
<p>PSAT taken once Fall of Junior year with no prep at all. Mid 60's for each. SATs first taken Spring of Junior year, again with no prep at all. Near 700 for each. SATs retaken October of Senior year, with only prep being one of the "10 Real SATs" done under duress because parents insisted. One side perfect, the other a slight decline. Hmmm. </p>
<p>With some prep I'm sure D had a 1600 in her. But she wasn't interested in HPYSM, so her "unprepped" numbers were more than sufficient. I'm sure that had some effect on D's performance.</p>
<p>Here's another scenario. D's PSATs: V70, M67, WS67 (taken sophomore year). She took the SAT I's first in March of her junior year and got low 700s and got a 750 on the Writing SATII. Although she didn't want to retake the SAT I's, we suggested she just try it one more time in September of senior year. She approached taking them with the attitude and feeling of relief that this would be the last time she ever took an SAT test and went up 20 points in math and 90 points in verbal. Other than going through Princeton Review's "Cracking the SAT" on her own (taken out from the library), she didn't do any other prep work.</p>
<p>I'm convinced that part of it is feeling relaxed on the day of the test because S (now a college senior) had no clue what test he was taking when he took the PSATs and did well enough to be a NM semi-finalist. He later confessed that he would have tried harder if he had known!</p>
<p>D's junior year PSAT (M 66, V 70, Wr 70) and SAT (M 680, V 700) were almost equal. Over the summer between junior and senior years she did about 5 of the Real SAT's (some all at one sitting; some in sections when she had time). Senior year SATs were M 740 and V 790. She did take an SAT II writing prep course and got 800. I really think there's something good to be gained from those Real SATs if you can put in the time.</p>
<p>I think the addition of writing to the New SATI is going to be a challenge to the wisdom of repeated sittings. In many cases, familiarity and/or prepping can help verbal and math, but it's not clear how the subjectively judged writing section will fare in second and third goes. This will bear watching.</p>
<p>My son took a prep class first then took the SATI twice., with little real energy expended in between. His V & M scores both improved the second time, for a total of 100 points. I attribute this mostly to familarity. Interestedly, he never did do as well as he did in the prep class.</p>