Sounds like for parents, if you want more grandkids, pay up for ND 
Bishop does seem like a data guy. To his and ND’s credit, he is very transparent about how ND does its legacy admissions. ND does double the legacies of any other top 20 school, and they tell you exactly how it works. Most other top tier schools in contrast blow a bunch of obscuring smoke about how their legacy policies work and keep the data hidden. They often communicate to the alums that (wink wink) it is a significant advantage, but then tell the non-alums it is no big deal. “Just a feather on the scale!” – whatever that is supposed to mean.
According to Bishop, there’s three different buckets for legacy applicants.
Roughly 20% of legacy applicants would get in anyway even if they weren’t legacies. Aspen’s kid (who also got into Gtown REA) is likely in that bucket. Sort of like the URM or athlete kid who didn’t need the help, but still everyone assumes they got in due to affirmative action. Even though they don’t need the help, ND’s generous legacy policy is a very good way to get these kids to apply to ND. For these kids, ND becomes a match/safety school. My school (not ND) does it in a similar way. I made my kids apply there regardless. Since it was very helpful to the overall process to have a top tier school that you knew was pretty much in the bag.
The first bucket kids are fairly likely to also get into Gtown, UVA and UMich (which as top tier EA schools are frequent cross-application schools for ND REA applicants). If these kids REA to ND, they might get into Duke, Vandy, NW, Penn too but often would not. Mostly because the ND REA kids would have had to bypass the significant ED advantage and so are stuck playing the Powerball odds of the RD round at a big ED school. They’d would have had good odds at Duke, Vandy etc. if they had decided to play ED.
Second bucket is the 20% get in but who wouldn’t get in if they weren’t legacy kids. 1 in 8 students (about 250 kids per class) are in that bucket. That is a BIG number. Actually, ND says it is the biggest number that there is in the top tier. These kids are more smart/accomplished than the 60% who are in the third bucket, but not quite as smart/accomplished as the 20% in the first bucket. These kids probably aren’t going to do all that great applying to other top tier schools.
60% of legacy kids get rejected. ND is a stretch for these kids, but you might as well play the legacy card if you have it. Turns out the legacy card (even at ND) isn’t strong enough for them. ND likely is the only top tier school that they would apply to.
ND uses its XL legacy policy very smartly. And when my non-legacy kid was applying to ND, I much appreciated how open ND was about how it worked so we could plan appropriately.
The defensiveness in this thread is interesting.
So is the need to desire to make legacy admits feel that they haven’t earned their place at the college.
Bottom line is a private college has a right to admit students as it chooses. ND has chosen to value legacy applicants. Reasons for this could range from increased donations, higher yield, or any combination of things that has proven to be a positive for the university. Many other colleges and universities place a strong value on legacy (including my alma mater, Penn) so ND is certainly not alone in this thinking.
My S got into grad school at ND and he is a legacy. He was absolutely qualified on his own merits but I’m sure the legacy status didn’t hurt. He applied and was accepted early in the process (his program had rolling admission), sent a deposit in right away, attended, did very well, got a great job, donates annually, and comes back to campus with his dad every year. If my S didn’t get in I’m not sure if H would have continued to donate (not that we give a big amount) or visit ND. All in all a win for everyone.
Suffice it to say that any legacy admit is a student who the university feels will succeed and thrive at the school. (and FWIW I know of many strong legacy candidates who were not admitted).
My legacy stepson has been admitted ND, Georgetown, Chicago and BC. He’s highly likely to go to ND, no matter what other options come through in RD.
@northwesty You are a treasure and a veritable font of information for any serious ND applicant. Thank you for all you contribute on this site for those of us interested in ND. Have I embarrassed you enough now? Not to worry, I won’t let it happen again.
“My legacy stepson has been admitted ND, Georgetown, Chicago and BC. He’s highly likely to go to ND, no matter what other options come through in RD.”
Sounds like bucket #1.
My son was denied. Both of us graduated from ND, as did his grandfather and 6 aunts/uncles. My husband has two degrees from ND (undergrad and PhD). Admissions advised my son to apply REA. We know multiple Alum kids that have not been accepted. My sons scores were in mid range…higher than some of the stats I have seen posted in the acceptance thread. His class rigor was extremely high. He got the “family” rejection letter saying REA had nothing to do with it…but not so sure. He does have some unique things on his app. His grandparents moved to ND (Holy Cross retirement community) hoping some grandkids would be there…so far 2/2 rejected and 3rd decided not to apply. 5 more to go.
@My5Kiddos Wow. That sounds like admissions malpractice…no deferral…no Holy Cross Gateway. Given all your links to ND is there someone you can talk to who can give you insight. This sounds bizarre. No legacy kid should be encouraged to apply REA if a rejection (as opposed to deferral to RD) is possible. We got very solid advice all along the way from Development and Don Bishop (we approached him at a live ND event in our hometown). He didn’t know us at all, and we’re not big contributors. I’m not sure how private messaging works on this forum but would be happy to communicate off line if you do.
I was surprised no Gateway or deferral as well. It was an in person conversation at a local event where my son got the advise to apply REA.
I’m not sure how private messaging works here but will give it a try later this afternoon. Thank you.
ok, all you need to do for a private message is double click on my screen name off to the left of the thread.
Kiddo – I’m sure that’s very disappointing to your family.
But fwiw, I don’t think applying REA had anything to do with the outcome.
I’ve always felt that the “REA deny that could have been an RD accept” was mostly an ND urban myth (since there’s always a big buffer built in with the defers). And the most recent numbers tell me that even more.
This year, it seemed that the REA/don’t REA advice coming out of ND was a lot looser than in prior years. Three years ago, for example, my kid (non-legacy) was firmly told “DO NOT REA” with a 33 ACT (and that was when the ACT range was lower at 32-34).
ND had flat total apps between 2020 and 2021, but REA apps went up 10%. REA apps went up another 10% for 2022. So I think ND realizes that REA has become the second front door and is gradually backing off of its concept that REA should just be limited to the upper quartile applicants. No way would ND only be accepting 25% of the REA pool if most of those kids really were top quartile applicants.
I also note that ND did not announce this year (as they have in the past) how many defers they had for 2022. My guess is that the number of defers was down. Which would be another indication that the REA round is becoming (in size and stats) more like the overall pool. More and more ND seats (probably 50+% this cycle) are getting allocated to REA admits, because the REA round keeps getting bigger and because the higher number of REA offers have a higher yield. Which would mean there’s less need for the defer buffer.
So it seems to me like ND is gradually sliding towards what most other selective EA/SCEA/REA schools say – you’ll get the same outcome either way. So apply early if your app is ready and as good as it will get.
Also fwiw, getting the bad news now will help you and your kid in the long term. The courtesy defer or automatic defer (like Gtown does) just drags your grieving and selection process out.
Good luck.
One more thought on the apparent REA trends.
This year kids got Gateway offers in the early round. I think that is new? Previously, didn’t the Gateway offers come out only at RD decision time?
If that is right, then another tell that ND is getting with the national trend that much more of the admission business now gets done early. And that your outcome (absent binding ED) doesn’t really get influenced by EA vs. RD.
@northwesty 's analysis in post 41 about legacy acceptances to ND and other top schools was spot on. My D was a perfect example of the “first bucket” legacy for the class of 2021. She was admitted REA to ND. Also admitted EA to Georgetown (Georgetown is the opposite of most top schools in that their acceptance rate for EA is lower than that of RD). She also applied RD to Duke, Penn and Vandy. She was rejected from Duke but waitlisted at Penn and Vandy. She says she will always wonder if she would have gotten into those schools if she had applied in the early round. Her counselor felt she had a great shot of getting into Duke ED. She was very torn between Duke and ND going into it, so knew at the outset that she was basically picking ND over Duke by using her early application option at ND instead of Duke. We believe she was qualified to get into ND on her own, without her legacy status. So I for one wish Don Bishop had not been quite so transparent in his comments. I know he was trying to give an honest explanation, but I fear the unintended consequence of his remarks is that they have created a question in the minds of some about the qualifications of legacy kids.
Seems likely to me (or at least there is a good chance) that the “about 250 kids/class who wouldn’t be here” but for the legacy preference is low. Why would it be overstated? When you look at applicants, there are some who are clearly getting in, some who are clearly not getting in and then a group in the middle who are people who could get admitted (but there are not sufficient seats so not all will). In that group are some legacies some of whom would make it without the preference and others who would not. But I wouldn’t expect it would necessarily be black and white in terms of who would make it without the preference and who wouldn’t. Doesn’t seem to me to be something that the university would overstate.
If you are a legacy I would think the best way to counteract any issues with possibly not belong there but for the preference would be to do well there. And anyone tells you that you shouldn’t be there, tell them you have a letter from the admissions office that says otherwise.
Geronimo – just paying it forward. Other folks on here were extremely helpful educating me a few year back about ND (which I didn’t know all that much about) when my kid latched onto it as a top choice. That was especially helpful since ND does a few things in admissions (like the big legacies and the REA) that are a bit unusual in the top tier.