Need advice: College for Very Bright, High-Achieving, Dyslexic

Parents Forum
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<p>Hey! befuddled, I remember chatting with you some years back about the challenges and rewards of expat education. </p>

<p>I can't advise on engineering or dyslexia, but two points that I can speak to are that we live overseas and our son is a graduate of Williams. He studied art and art history and is about to embark on a Masters of Architecture. Williams is a wonderfully supportive environment, especially for kids with faraway families. The entry system, the academic counseling, the overall "we're here for you" attitude of the professors, made a huge impact on the quality of education. </p>

<p>Several other small liberal arts colleges offer the same nurturing environment plus profoundly good academics, but I'd give Williams especially high marks for excellent math/sciences plus very friendly, happy, smart, talented and multi-faceted kids. The much touted personal relationships between students and faculty are for real. The professors reach out to the kids, in the classroom, personally, and as recommenders for internships, jobs and graduate schools.</p>

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<p>Befuddled (you sound like a really great parent by the way) I'm curious about what drove you to have your son assessed in the first place. If there is some measurable dysfunction that shows up in testing, evidently it is not showing up in his school performance. </p>

<p>So is there really a problem? You have an extremely bright kid who happens to process information in a slow, thoughtful, deliberate way. In a world full of fast-talking glib people, what's not to like? </p>

<p>Is it possible you are caught up in the joy (or, let's face it, the status) of having a brilliant child, and fear the bubble is going to burst? If so, maybe you should be focusing on identifying his true interests, not worrying that he will hit a wall and expose his weaknesses. </p>

<p>For instance, does he know about the Solar Decathlon (<a href="http://www.solardecathlon.org/)?%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.solardecathlon.org/)?&lt;/a> This is an annual bake-off of 20 or so universities competing to build the best, most energy-efficient house. The entries are trucked to the Mall in Washington DC in October, where they are assembled and put on display to the public for about 2 weeks. Schools that have fielded strong teams include MIT, RISD, Virginia Tech, U.Va., and Cornell. The annual show is a blast. Entries are evaluated not only on energy efficient performance, but also on attractive design.</p>

<p>Does this sort of thing have any appeal to him? Is he a team player, or more of a brilliant loner? Does he like the idea of building stuff? Or is he more likely to be headed toward basic research and analysis?</p>

<p>I would think that someone like your son could find a comfortable niche in architectural/engineering design work, or in the underlying science. It's a big tent that can accommodate schmoozers and geeks, artsy-fartsy types as well as number-crunchers, or people who think slow deep thoughts about man's place in the built environment.</p>

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<p>I'm a high school special ed teacher, so also have some familiarity with what's out there, although I'm sort of limited to the east coast where I teach. (Most parents do not want their children with special needs to go far away.) Anyway, as one poster said, IEPs are not applicable post secondary. As far as law, schools are bound by Americans with Disabilities Act instead (504s), which must make reasonable accommodations. But what each college defines as 'reasonable' varies and very frequently what was accommodated in secondary schools is no longer accommodated in colleges (think IEPs versus 504s in high school). The fact is some colleges are far more welcoming and accommodating than others. Also, since your child is legally an adult, your influence as a parent is pretty much nil. Your child must fend for himself and address his own needs. Typically (I've also been a college teacher) in the first week, the student is expected to go privately up to the professor and say, "Here are my needs. Is it ok if I tape record your class?" or whatever it is the student needs. Usually the prof will say yes. Different colleges have different resources for students with special needs, but usually all require the student to be proactive and identify his/her needs from the get go. DEFINITELY make sure that when applying to a college the student identifies himself as special needs. This will help you in making your decision; some schools (many schools) are simply not all that accommodating.</p>

<p>As for your own child, maybe it's different from different countries, but in the US, 'dyslexia' is considered a sort of 'out of favor' term, and a more specific term is usually favored. (No one I know in special ed uses the term 'dyslexia' to describe a student's needs anymore.) I would encourage you to have extensive testing on hand so that you can be as specific as possible as far what he needs--in other words, is his processing the only culprit? If so, by how much? For instance, what are the grade level disparities between his reading rate, his comprehension and his reading accuracy? Testing can get very specific as far as identifying what works best, although there are definitely shortcomings and it is a still developing 'science.' But when you have the details in hand, that will really help you identify what college will assist you best. Good luck with all this!</p>

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<p>hoveringmom, we call it specific learning disabilities when we need to speak to the special ed community but talking to parents (and college administrators other than the disabilities people), dyslexia communicates better even if it is imprecise. [Though specific learning disabilities is not notably more precise]. Probably like Befuddled, we've done testing out the wazoo. My sister is a clinical neuropsychologist and she was visiting when my son was 5 or 6 and said, you need to get him tested and here's what his verbal and performance IQ scores will be -- there was exactly the 50 point gap she predicted and she was off by only 4 points. We've done the testing every three years since then. We have had some real luck working with folks at Tufts who specialize in the neurology of reading in working on building reading fluency -- my son's reading comprehension became very good before he entered high school if he had extra time.</p>

<p>I'll try to share my knowledge when I have it. Some schools are more flexible -- Amherst and Brown have no distribution or language requirement -- and that is meaningful to my son. I met with disabilities services office at Brown and they were very pleasant, but one of the students on CC who transferred to Brown says that Brown is a lot less forthcoming with accommodations than his previous school Tulane. So, I think it is important to ask students as well. Tufts has a creative and seemingly very helpful disabilities office, but has lots of requirements.</p>

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<p>Shawbridge, the “gap” you mention was a 50-point gap between verbal and performance IQ scores? The performance score was lower, and manifested itself in low reading fluency? And you addressed the performance gap through training, right? Are you aware of any approaches that are more holistic, emphasizing the role of stimulation, reduced distractions, sunlight, time management, etc.? </p>

<p>At the college level, is “extra time” the most important accommodation? </p>

<p>A couple of colleges follow a “block” plan, in which only one subject is studied at a time. I wonder how a high verbal, low performance person might function in an environment like that?</p>

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<p>Muskingum is a nice school for a typical bright dyslexic student (maybe not for a very bright very high achieving dyslexic student) </p>

<p>I wanted to share the Muskingum College site about high school to college issues for students with learning disabilities. The link is to the parent page but there is also a nice student page
[Muskingum</a> College - Center for Advancement and Learning (CAL)](<a href=“http://www.muskingum.edu/~cal/database/tocollege/index_parents.html]Muskingum”>http://www.muskingum.edu/~cal/database/tocollege/index_parents.html)</p>

<p>If you select “Finding and choosing the right college” ^ there is a list of questions to consider investigating</p>

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<p>Sounds to me like your son won’t be happy in a college where there is no engineering option, although if he’s like most kids he’ll probably change his mind about his major 20 times before settling on something. I almost hate to suggest Stanford because admission there is now as much a crapshoot as HYP, but it’s an ideal place for someone who wants to major in engineering but is looking for a broader education, and Stanford provides very good support for students with LD’s. </p>

<p>A completely different school that comes to mind, because a bright, dyslexic neighbor of ours seems very happy there, is WPI in Massachusetts. It has a collaborative, hands-on approach to teaching engineering that might really resonnate with your son.</p>

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<p>tk, yes. Verbal 50 points higher. Training – multi-sensory programs like Orton Gillingham and Wilson Language. He’s currently working with a lab at Tufts to modify software written to help children make recognition of phonemes automatic to make recognition of morphemes automatic and is the first guinea pig.</p>

<p>I don’t htink we did anything holistic. According to our neuropsychologist, many if not most kids with LDs need to improve time management. We worked on that. He had sleep apnea and has had a machine and and used lights for circadian rhythyms. He’s recently had surgery and now may need to readjust his clock.</p>

<p>Accommodations: Extra time, note-takers, readings where possible on audio or Kurzweil. Good to have a scribe sometimes and use of speech recognition technolog. Taking one fewer course per semester a possibility.</p>

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<p>Hi Shawbridge, I ask this as a parent rather than a high school special ed teacher, because I’m woefully ignorant about this (my students have usually had IEPs for 10 years before I get them; also, in general my students have more ‘obvious’ disabilities, such as severe cognitive or behavioral) —How much does all this testing cost? Did you pay this out of pocket? Did insurance cover it? Did your school district cover any and if so, how much? </p>

<p>I’m asking because I’m pretty sure my youngest son (age 9) has some sort of learning disability and there is no way on earth I could afford to pay out of pocket for any diagnostic testing, which I understand is in the several thousands. Any advice/information on this would be really appreciated!</p>

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<p>HM, an assessment by an educational psychologist does not necessarily cost thousands of dollars. It’s not free, and I doubt you can get it covered by insurance.
However, a basic battery of tests and a consultation might cost much less (depending on the issues and required work). You can ask your school for a referral, then discuss the nature of your concerns as well as the costs with the consultant by phone, without making any commitment.</p>

<p>What can easily happen is that you observe some change in your child’s behavior, or performance contrary to expectations, and attribute it to all sorts of things (lack of effort, distractions, bad teachers, immaturity, etc.) without any scientific basis. Meanwhile the underlying problem is not well described, let alone addressed.</p>

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<p>befuddled: I can’t seem to send you a PM, but if you’re interested in another perspective, PM me with a way to get in touch with you.</p>

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<p>Yes.</p>

<p>(Wikipedia article on the subject:
“Dyslexia is diagnosed in people of all levels of intelligence”)</p>

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<p>According to Wikipedia, Charles Schwab is dyslexic. He got his undergraduate degree and MBA from Stanford. His son is also dyslexic.</p>

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<p>TK–Thanks. Yes, I’m aware of what can happen when you ignore the possibility of a LD. That’s why I’d like to test–I did an informal testing of him and it did indicate a possible LD (very wide disparity of reading rate and comprehension/ability). But I would need to go more formal with this. He’s my fifth child and my other kids happened to be strong readers, so I’ve never had this experience before; I’ve contacted the teacher, and I guess I’ll wait. Again thanks for the feedback–it helps me a lot. As far as being dyslexic and bright–I’m not sure the poster understands what dyslexia is. Many, many people suffer from dyslexia nad they can certainly be very bright. It doesn’t really have to do with intelligence; it’s processing (actually some argue it does have to do with intelligence in that dyslexia is more common in more intelligent people!).</p>

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<p>h<em>or</em>y, different people’s brains are wired differently. Literacy is a task that arose recently in the evolution of the human brain and it is only in the last couple of hundred years or so that it has become so important. Dyslexics brains work somewhat differently. Maryanne Wolf of Tufts published a book called Proust and the Squid recently. which has three parts. One looks at the neurology of reading to see that dyslexics handle reading tasks in a different part of their brain than non-dyslexics. But that means they tend to do other things particularly well, including things like pattern recognition. Higher order intelligence like the ability to see what kind of problem is tractable, how one might use the tools one has to see what kind of mathematical conjecture might likely be valid, how to apply an intellectual apparatus built up in one field to make progress in another, or how to make decisions in complex business or government environments, likely is more like pattern recognition than it is like the kind of linear thinking than that which is typically taught (with some real exceptions) in high school and college. Wolf believes that dyslexics were the leaders and generals of earlier eras. It is hard to know for sure if this is true because people didn’t have psychological testing but people speculate that both Edison and Einstein had significant difficulties in elementary school (Edison got kicked out) and Einstein was thought to be stupid (e.g., perhaps the “functional ■■■■■■” you described) were dyslexic or had similar learning disabilities. Richard Branson, founder of the Virgin Group and the founder of Kinko’s were also dyslexic as is the well-known litigator David Boies (represented the US in its successful anti-trust suit against Microsoft and Al Gore in Bush v. Gore). As an example of what the pattern recognition capability that I am talking about, here is a quote from a partner at his first law firm Cravath, Swaine and Moore: The one talent of David’s that stands out is his ability to lay out a course of action that would take into account any sort of complicated facts and develop a far-reaching scenario. It’s a chess player’s sense: If I do this, the following 15 things are going to happen, and if step 11 goes so, I’ll do this rather than that. It’s a fantastic game-playing ability." Thomas D. Barr, quoted in the New York Times Sunday Magazine, June 1, 1986. </p>

<p>But, dyslexics like Boies will only learn to read well if they are taught properly (and people are still only learning how to do this) and if they are given appropriate accommodations (like extra time). If they are not, our current social sorting process may take these same people (e.g., high IQ and dyslexic) and put them in lesser positions that don’t take advantage of their abilities and effectively penalize them for their reading deficiencies. Wolf argues in effect that our current society is depriving itself of a tremendous resource. Even now, if you compare dyslexic kids or kids with other learning disabilities to “neurotypical” kids who get the same grades and board scores, it is likely that the dyslexic kids who do succeed in our educational system have either more drive and determination or greater intelligence (whatever that is) than kids with typical kids who perform at the same level. This is consistent with a Forbes survey of entrepreneurs that suggested a disproportionately high representation of dyslexics.</p>

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<p>Great post, shawbridge. I’ve worked for two companies that were owned and run by dyslexics. Two of the smartest entrepreneurs I’ve ever known. They both knew how to compact and process information – mostly by listening carefully and circling back to fill in the gaps – and both were profoundly good communicators.
What I learned from them was “get it on one page.”</p>

<p>Since it’s going to be sometime before Maryann Wolf’s book gets to the top of my reading list would you mind revealing the significance of the title?</p>

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<p>I think she’s interested in reading, as described by Proust, as an “intellectual sanctuary” and thinks that reading complex sentences and long books and complex thoughts enobles our soul (vis-a-vis reading on the web). Reading leads us to vicariously live in other worlds and grasp feelings and thoughts that belong to others and that you can connect to your feelings and thoughts. </p>

<p>Scientists studied the various ways in which the squid used its central axon to “repair and compensate when things went awry.” The squid’s axon provides an analogy for “what the human brain has to do to read, and of its clever ways of adapting when things go wrong.” Studying reading neuronally is akin to the scientists’ earlier study of the squid and provide a complementary way to understand the different layers of reading from Proust’s view.</p>

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<p>befuddled, you wanted to know what my son decided. He got in to 10 schools, but he we narrowed it down to Dartmouth, Amherst, Tufts and Wesleyan and Amherst was the hands-down winner for my son. Tufts he eliminated because of the language requirement – 6 semesters (3 of language and 3 of culture). If the 3 semesters of language were waived (virtually certain), they would be replaced with an additional 3 of culture. Amherst and Wesleyan look to be terrific for helping with dyslexia/LDs and Tufts was very good also but in different ways. I have written an exegesis on this in the Parents of the Class of 09 forum, which I’ll quote here:</p>

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<p>And then,</p>

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<p>So, Amherst without vacillation. [The only caveat. He was wait-listed at his first choice, Brown, but he’d never visited other schools. Brown would also be good, but in my opinion, Amherst would be a lot better for him. But, if they accept him off the WL, we’ll have a more serious discussion].</p>

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<p>It must have been a tough decision, with so many terrific choices. I’m thrilled to hear that Amherst won out on such an obviously terrific kid. Your strategy of getting the acceptances and then meeting with disability services was brilliant and one I intend to copy. I had no idea Amherst was decent in this area and I’m glad to hear it as my son may well be following behind yours. As a legacy with stats that put him in the top group anyway for Amherst, we’re told he will likely be fortunate enough to be accepted as well. At present, he is leaning more toward liberal arts than an engineering program, so our list will likely be quite similar to your son’s. </p>

<p>Will you keep in touch and let me know how he’s liking it? It’s clearly such a different place than the late 70’s when I was in the first class of women accepted. I know I’ve mentioned that one thing I loved about it was that we sat around for hours debating current events, ideas, everything. However I recently discussed this experience with another alum who said what he didn’t like about Amherst was that people never talked about important things outside of class. And he and I overlapped in our time there. You might advise your son that if he doesn’t find the right crowd right away, to jettison his first group of friends and find another. </p>

<p>You sound like an awesome dad and should be proud of what you’ve heelped your son to accomplish. Enjoy the spring!</p>

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<p>Thank you for that detailed reflection on the selection process. I have a gifted and dyslexic child, and I really appreciate your insights.</p>