Need advice: College for Very Bright, High-Achieving, Dyslexic

Parents Forum
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<p>befuddled, I’ll give you my email address via PM as I doubt I’ll be frequenting CC next year – though my younger child will be a junior next year so who knows. Although my son found it nerve-wracking, the choice became quite clear to him. He grouped the schools into similar schools and said, “Amherst and Bowdoin are similar but Amherst is a little stronger in each dimension so I’ll drop Bowdoin.” (In an economic sense, Amherst dominates Bowdoin so there’s no need to also look at Bowdoin.) He did that to arrive at the 4 schools listed above. Then, we visited. I’ll tell my son to circulate until he finds interesting friends.</p>

<p>Good luck to you befuddled and to you siliconvalleymom and to your respective progeny. It has been a difficult, painful but ultimately rewarding journey helping my son get to the point that he should be able to handle the work at places like Amherst. Then the college application process was a lot worse than in the dark ages when I applied. But, I’ve largely passed on the baton to my son. When we were at Wesleyan, the Disabilities Dean talked separately with him for an hour and then brought me in for the last 15 minutes and said, “he’s good. He can advocate for himself.” This was part of our last two years’ work in HS, preparing him to take the baton and run the next lap, and hopefully the rest of the race, on his own.</p>

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<p>Shawbridge, thank you for all you have shared. Your son is fortunate to have found a school like Amherst and even more fortunate to have parents who were so in tune to his needs. Not to mention, having an Aunt who is a clinical neuropsychologist (did I spell that right?).</p>

<p>You’ve described the final selection process, but how did the fact that he is dyslexic play into the admissions process? Were the schools aware of his LD when they accepted him? </p>

<p>One of my children has challenges that did not begin to surface until HS sophomore year. Up to then this was such a high-achieving kid that when the grades started to fall, we attributed it to normal distractions of teenage life. It was not until late in Junior year that an assessment revealed underlying issues. Accommodations (extra time) followed slowly. We did not bring up the LD issue to schools during the application process. </p>

<p>I suspect our pattern is a little more typical than yours. I’m sure it is even more typical for LD kids to muddle through without having their needs addressed at all.</p>

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<p>This week I met with a friend who is a private college consultant whose view on whether or not to disclose LD in the application may be of interest. My son’s first SAT I scores were strong in math but at the border of just o.k. for the schools he hopes to be competitive at with a 700 in CR. He’s taking it again in a week. If CR doesn’t come up, the consultant advised disclosing his dyslexia to explain the weaker aspect of his application. If it goes over 750 in the second attempt, he suggested not going there. If we do disclose, he suggests having the H.S. counselor also write about his LD and his writing a secondary (smaller) essay response on his LD. Obviously formulaic, but may be of interest to you all. </p>

<p>My personal view is that if the LD has been a big part of the student’s life struggles, growth as a person, etc., that it would be good to share that. However I know that most people don’t get it that a student can be simultaneously extremely bright and talented and still have a LD. In my work, I’d estimate that about 20% of teachers and school adminstrators actually get it. Why would we expect college admissions officers to be more enlightened? Thus I understand caution in revealing information that might be held against your child, no matter how wrong it is that is could be.</p>

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<p>Our kid had the same score pattern as befuddled’s. He did not request accommodation (extra time) or disclose LD on the applications. He says he pretty much breezed through the math (making one error) to devote more energy to the CR chore. </p>

<p>If the outcomes reflect the scores, then they were exactly as befuddled describes: on the borderline of competitive to the kinds of schools we’re discussing. Acceptances from the likely through low reach schools; 1 waitlist and 2 rejections from the reach schools. </p>

<p>Would it have been better to get the extra time, score near-perfect numbers, and be admitted to an even more selective, wealthier school? Hard to say. He’s happy with the outcome. He’ll have to learn to balance the course loads without the benefit of readers and Kurzweil machines, but that’s part of college life for most kids. I am glad though that at least a couple of well-endowed schools are doing more to help our brightest LD kids reach their full potential.</p>

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<p>I am the parent of a very bright, hard working, ambitious dyslexic 7th grader. This thread is amazing and something I badly needed to hear. After years in a flexible parochial school where he has done very well WITH accommodations we started the process of trying to obtain an IEP or 504 so he could be assured continued accommodations in high school. Welcome to the brick wall. We have been told his test scores alone preclude him being identified as having an “academic disability” under the IDEA despite the fact they were taken with accommodations. (Yes, he has had testing galore plus years of wonderful orton-gillingham base tutoring. He tests well untimed but his writing is comparatively weak). The information in this thread gives me a lot of hope as well as some concrete things to consider when the time comes to consider colleges for him. Many thanks.</p>

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<p>tk, my son’s applications disclosed his dyslexia in several ways. As I’ll explain, it was integral to his education so it would have been hard to hide. First, the optional essay on the common app asks for special circumstances and extra qualifications and in it he explained why his dyslexia was both a special circumstance and an extra qualification. He explained how hard it had been to learn to read and write, how he had learned to cope with dyslexia, and what it gave him that would be an asset in the future, and how it had in some ways defined who he was. Second, to ensure that he learned how to write well (and to give him more challenge in math), we started a partial homeschooling program in 10th grade. So, in the homeschool supplement, I explained the rationale for the homeschooling. Third, we asked the relevant teachers to mention his LD in the recommendation, explaining both his performance in light of the disability. One of the two HS teachers said that he was one of the best students she’d had in 15 years and then said that his achievements were even more impressive in light of his learning disability. Fourth, we asked the superintendent of schools to write a recommendation mentioning his ability to advocate for himself and her impression of him. She had approved the partial homeschooling program (the first in our district and, had followed his progress; he had faced off with the head of the English department in a meeting with her and the HS principal over what he would do to complete his English requirement. The English teacher was a bit overbearing but my son responded by saying that while they agreed on what he needed to learn, the course of study that the English department wanted him to undertake wouldn’t help him meet his and their objectives. She commented on how well he’d done in bringing his writing level up to his intellectual level, that he was a good advocate, and was incredibly positive about how bright and capable he was. Finally, his gap year description included continued work on reading fluency.</p>

<p>In my son’s case, he really loves ideas and debate more than anything. He has been frustrated through most of school because there would only be one or two kids in a class (including honors/AP) who were playing in the same league he is. He is driven to succeed. If he had been different, I might have taken a more casual approach. It took a year to negotiate with the College Board to get the appropriate accommodations. We negotiated at least every semester with the high school. He is not in the least bit abashed about disclosing his LDs, getting extra time or looking different. He knows he needs the time to show who he is and is in fact extremely confident that, with extra time and appropriate accommodations and a lot of hard studying, he is going to perform well.</p>

<p>On the scores, he would get mid 40’s percentile on the standardized test at the private middle school with no accommodations. With lots of practice, he got 98th percentile with accommodations on the SSATs but we decided to send him to public HS. His reading and writing improved greatly but we had no idea how he would do on SATs. He spent 3 weeks studying for the SATs during his gap year. After 3 days, he told me he’d get an 800 on the math. [I believed him and he made no errors]. He studied for a week on CR and told me that he’d get between a 700 and an 800 and the determinant of the score would be how fatigued he was at the end. He then studied for the writing test for 1 1/2 weeks and then made the same pronouncement though he thought an 800 was hard because of some tricking grammar questions. I was concerned that he was overconfident, but he got a 760 on both. He said he could have done better, but we decided that these scores were sufficient. If you had told me that he’d gotten a 650 on CR and Writing, I would have believed that and adjusted college targets. </p>

<p>befuddled, we didn’t shy away from disclosure because we figured that if they didn’t want him because he was dyslexic, he didn’t want to be there. But, you are right. A high percentage of people including teachers don’t believe that someone can be very bright and have significant learning disabilities.</p>

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<p>It is good to hear that at least one parent of a middle school student finds this discussion helpful. </p>

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<p>Yup, that’s about what we were told, too. However, our private HS did come through with accommodations of extra time in our kid’s final year there. For one of the few times in his life, lately I heard him speak with satisfaction of the pleasures of reading a book. A big, fat Russian novel no less.</p>

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<p>IDEA has changed for the worse since I was negotiating with schools as the failure to achieve potential standard is gone or weakened. But, I would think they would have to use test scores taken without accommodations to judge whether accommodations are necessary. I would consider consulting with an advocate.</p>

<p>Also, Section 504 has been strengthened dramatically by the passage of something called the ADAA. Take a look at that.</p>

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<p>hoveringmom, I noticed that I didn’t answer your question about costs of testing. The neuropsychologist we used for both my son and my daughter cost about $1500 per test. It generally isn’t covered by insurance, but in some years we had insurance that paid some percentage for out-of-network visits and in those years, they were covered. You can probably pay it out of pre-tax income using a Section 125 plan.</p>

<p>We always sense that our daughter had some issues but this psychologist said there weren’t any. She got into a pretty tough to get into private HS in our area and was really having issues with anxiety. The school’s consulting psychologist read her previous test scores and said, a) she has processing speed disorder and extra time will really help her; b) looks ADD to me; c) the original psychologist missed this and his report is not good enough to get approval for extra time for SATs; and d) get her tested by someone we trust and who can write a report that will work for the SATs. We did. She identified some things for us to do and the school has cooperated fully. Her test was $4000 – probably her fees come from a) more thoroughness; b) her office is in a very affluent town (construction costs are always higher in towns like this); and c) the school is pretty tony.</p>

<p>One can get public schools to pay for testing, but it sometimes takes a while. I didn’t do that because public schools have limited resources and I wanted them to feel that I wasn’t trying to siphon off $$ but just wanted their help with my kid (and this worked). But, it backfired with the College Board. They apparently think that parents buy diagnoses and so distrust anything from private psychologists. We had to appeal their decision (50% extra time instead of the 100% extra time my son needs) by asking teachers, special ed folks and others (none of whom received any financial benefit from us) explaining why they thought 100% extra time was needed.</p>

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<p>Shawbridge is a huge expert on this…and I second everything he has to say. I would add for Ithaca–if you are still reading or interested in this thread–that it is important not to give up in these cases. It seems like you can just “let it go” in 7th grade, but these things have a really big cascading effect and you have to be willing to have a lot of endurance in getting high iq dylexics thier accomodations…It is not a question of how they perform relative to the other kids in the class but how they perform relative to themselves. (I know you already know this.) It seems drastic, but even just having an attorney present can help a lot. Even just cc your correspondence to an attorney can help, as well. It is not that the schools don’t want to accomodate, it is that they do not want to spend the money. Shawbridge has pointed this out, and I just want to re-emphasize this. It is such a big issue that D is in the process of starting a foundation to get the expensive stuff likecomputers to less priveledged kids.</p>

<p>So, if it is possible for you to pay, be verrry up front about that. In the beginning when it became clear that D would need computers to write, the school was exceedingly resistant. But, when she showed up with her own laptop, with the recommended software, the school became verry accomodating. I once attended a seminar about LD and education. It was for educators, but I thought it would help me as a parent to be more helpful if I had the most recent information. It did! But not the way I thought it would. The entire seminar was really devoted to how to NOT accomodate, how to give the minimum. This is all budget-based. So, you should know that and do what you need to do to make sure your kid gets thier needs met. </p>

<p>Also, and Shawbridge has pointed this out, but it is important–the 504 laws are stronger now, and it is no longer legal, I believe, to deny accomodations simply because the disability CAN be modified, which is what is happening if your child is denied accomodations based on a test taken WITH accomodations. Good luck! I know it can be exhuasting, and it is tempting to just let it go. But don’t. School gets harder and more complicated and if the child does not have what they need in Jr. High, it will get even harder to get it later on!</p>

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<p>First off thank you everyone for your insight. Shawbridge your information is incredible. I am in the same boat as all of you…my daughter gifted yet Dyslexic/dysgraphic/calcula/ADHD/anxiety. It amazes me the labels attached to children who think outside the box. That being said she has an IEP and college board accommodations. She tests either poorly or exceptional making her grades average. She aspires to study Anthropology for 4 years then on to medical school. Please help me find a path for her. We visited Wells College yesterday. She fell in love…I wanted to move in myself. She felt the small campus, isolation and class size was perfect for her. I was surprised at how unpretentious and not an empty beer bottle in sight (it was an unplanned visit) the campus was. At $46k a year I suppose we should be made to feel "special"we are waayyy out of our price range.
Another alternative would be community college then her high school gpa and SAT scores wont matter when transferring. I am out of my comfort zone. I just know she wants small and quiet. Thanks again for all you help.</p>

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<p>maria1519, ShawSon is at a small LAC where professors get to know him and how smart he is. It is a very competitive school. However, he has done extremely well – triple major with a 3.95 GPA. They have been terrific on accommodations. But, poetgrl’s D is, IIRC, at a larger, less competitive school and has thrived. Both have had big successes, so it is not clear it is the size of the school but the attitude of the school and the professors about kids with LDs. I can’t comment on community colleges. I suspect one could do well or poorly there in terms of the educational experience (are faculty knowledgeable enough?) Are they more or less likely to be accommodating with respect to LDs? My son has experienced a few issues (as has my daughter) with sparse course availability at all schools.</p>

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<p>My S has dyscalculia (dyslexia for math). We disclosed it but its useless. Even in HS, everyone would just say some kids aren’t good at math. If he had dyslexia, they would understand but there was a lot of prejudice when it came to math. We found schools with very low math requirements for graduation.</p>

<p>Dyslexia has to be worked through though. Disclosure has been very beneficial. There are advocates and supportive people on campus that can help.</p>

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<p>I had forgotten about this old thread, but I’m glad it resurfaced so that other parents of “gifted” dyslexics can learn. I know that when this thread and others by Shaw were up for the first time, my youngest was just starting middle school and he had already come a very far way since first grade. He’s now having very good success with his college acceptances and ultimately will have to make the big/small decision. He did not have great “luck” with his reading standardized test scores but they were enough above average coupled with high math scores to result in what I think are good outcomes…but he applied to a broader range of schools than his non LD brothers in anticipation. Excellent advice both from Shawbridge and from Poetgrl.</p>

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<p>shawbridge. Yes it is all about the fit I agree and willingness to work with students. Have you had any experience (or feedback) from Wells College? My daughter would like to be close to home. We are in upstate NY near the Fingerlakes. We have found many schools talk the talk because it is required by law for them to “accommodate”. I am amazed at “the big sell” or appropriately stated “love bombing” I have witnessed. She truly needs a school where the profs love what they do and sit around tables discussing subject matter instead of in rows like a trad classroom. Do institutions like this exist? I feel as if its all sports or get the degree and get on with it instead of educating the next generation to become thinkers, problem solving empathetic sustainable individuals</p>

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<p>No knowledge of Wells College. As I mentioned, all the schools talk the talk in generalities. You only find out if they walk the walk after acceptance when you ask specifically about what they will do – and need to know to make a decision among schools. I think there are schools with small classes where there is lots of professorial attention. New College in Florida seemed like a school that would have around the table conversations. More traditional small schools like Amherst or Williams or probably Ithaca College in your area will likely have more traditional formats. You might consider starting a thread asking about where there are schools like this. Could Hampshire be similar to what you are looking for?</p>

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<p>Hi - new to the forum as of today. As a parent of a smart dyslexic daughter. Of course, my first search was on dyslexia. :slight_smile: Got to love our kids that have their unique way of processing and thinking. My daughter is wrapping up her junior year and we are searching for colleges. We have been on a few visits and we met with the disablity affairs office. Each school is a little different, but they all seem to be willing to offer the same accommodations that she has been receiving in high school. As someone mentioned above, the big thing I am stressing with my daughter is that she will be the one having to advocate for herself. </p>

<p>Just wanted to say thanks for all the information.</p>

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<p>My younger daughter has LD and some other issues as a result of that but is also very bright (as most LD kids are) so we took a long time to find the appropriate school for her. I might suggest the Loren Pope book - Colleges That Change Lives as a good starting point, it will present some schools you’ve not heard of that would be excellent for your child. I’m guessing that your daughter doesn’t want to be far from home because of her “residuals” from being dyslexic. See if you can stretch her a bit by visiting some schools that are a little further from home.</p>

<p>A non-stressful environment was key for our daughter, her panic is always how bad she’s doing and then walks away with an A or A- so we didn’t want that for her in college. She also hates competition so something less competitive but not “easy” was also important. Oh and parent2222, advocating for herself is a disaster for my daughter, although she has gotten better this year with the help of her amazing advisor.</p>

<p>All I can say is that the right school makes everyone’s life so much better and more relaxed. She was admitted to Bard, Hampshire, Beloit, Pitzer, and Knox (all she applied to). Bard was way too stressful, Beloit discontinued one of her probable majors (ceramics), Hampshire was a bit too “hipster” for her, so in the end it was between Pitzer and Knox. After Admitted Student days we found no cooperation from Pitzer when we asked questions and Knox was the most helpful school we’ve ever experienced. As someone said, they all “talk the talk” because it’s Federal Law, but execution is a whole other thing. Also, execution without embarrassment was key for my daughter.</p>

<p>Before accepting Knox she had me call to check that she could be exempt from their Foreign Language requirement. The head of the LD department (whatever it’s called) had me fax over her test results and got back to me the next day saying that he couldn’t guarantee it but it was highly likely that she could be exempt and that she might also be exempt from one of their math requirements.</p>

<p>In this last year, we have been thrilled. Our daughter has gone beyond her comfort zone so often I am amazed. She has two advisors, one in her area of interest and one from the LD office, who work together, she gets to register early (not an uncommon accommodation at most schools) so that she doesn’t take too many “heavy reading” classes, is always offered audio books for her classes, etc. Knox is a trimester so each term they take only 3 classes totaling 9 for the year.</p>

<p>There are more schools out there like Knox, it’s just the one my daughter chose and I can’t recommend it enough.</p>

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<p>parent2222 and amtc, I modeled/coach my son on self-advocacy in HS so by the end he was doing a lot of it and did it in college. He became good at it. He will still ask me to revise emails he is going to send to professors or the Disability Services Office (DSO). Although he has a speech delay, he competed in Moot Court in HS and joined his college debate team, which did hone his ability to speak cogently and forcefully when needed. </p>

<p>For those of you contemplating the journey or participating in it with a bright kid with LDs, I want to report on what could be called a major success. I hope it doesn’t sound like bragging (though clearly I’m a proud father). Entering 3rd grad, ShawSon really couldn’t read. In 4th grade, it took him an hour to hand copy a paragraph and he got a splitting headache that last a day. In 9th grade, his reading comprehension was excellent (18th grade level) but he read at a speed as if he were reading the words for the first time. He couldn’t write at a level commensurate with his intellectual ability. He was admitted to a prestigious LAC and other elite schools without being an athlete, URM or legacy. As noted in prior posts, the curricular flexibility of the school and the willingness of the disabilities services office to work with him and with respect to accommodations and services turned out to be determining factors in the choice. </p>

<p>Fast forward, he’s graduating – summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, with several awards for academic excellence, and a 3.95 or higher GPA with a triple major in hard subjects. I don’t think in 3rd or 4th grade this was foreseeable, even though I knew he was really bright – and my wife attributes some of his success to my championing of him in many ways over the years (including negotiating the first partial homeschooling plan in our district because the HS wasn’t teaching him to write in a way that worked form him and to a large extent, I taught him). What mattered?

  1. Curricular flexibility of the school, so he could balance out heavy reading with non-reading courses.
  2. The willingness of the DSO to really be helpful. We went to the DSOs at the final college choices and asked: “Now that he’s admitted, what kind of accommodations/services will you provide?” Some walked the walk and others just talked the talk. We told the #2 school, which was originally #1 that he needed a definitive answer on a few questions before he could decide and that without answers (they just wanted to pawn it off on a committee later), he would not attend.
  3. He must be in the top 0.1% of the population in drive. He would and did work until physical collapse, but collapsed only when he handed things in. I had told him when he received the dyslexia diagnosis in 2nd grade that he was very smart, but that he would have to work harder than everyone else for the rest of his life and that was just a fact. His self-narrative is about overcoming adversity.
  4. He’s good at math – much better than he thinks – and although he didn’t love it, I suggested that he take a math course every semester. Math courses have little reading – and he told me that it was only when he reached his 7th or 8th math course that he had to read the book before doing the problem sets.<br>
  5. I suggested he major in science as science classes require less reading, but he found social science more interesting and his primary majors (other than math) were in social science, and this meant more reading.<br>
  6. He never was embarrassed acknowledging his LDs and asking for accommodations or help (from the DSO, a tutor who has been coaching/helping him from afar, professors, friends, me). His college was exceptionally helpful. They said to me before he chose to go there: “If we accepted your son, we will do everything we can to make it work.” And, as far as I am concerned, the DSO and his advisors and most other professors did.
  7. Because his effort was as intense as it was and his talent level was high, everyone wanted to help. As professors got to know him better, they became more and more accommodating. [He started that in HS. On his own as a freshman, he decided to try to get an A+ in every subject at the end of the first quarter. Then he went to ask teachers: “I showed you I could be successful doing it your way. Now, please let me show you that I can remain successful doing it my way.” This meant no regurgitative writing to prove he’d done the reading, only doing the hard problems in a problem set, etc.]. He doesn’t want to be defined by his LDs and has declined to appear in a documentary fill or a non-profit book about dyslexics who have been successful.
  8. He’s extremely bright, even compared to most of the other kids at this elite school, which helps. There’s one other kid there who he met and later said, “He’s like what I’d be if I weren’t dyslexic.”</p>

<p>My job is now done, unless and until he wants to go to grad school, and I’ll help him with advice.</p>

<p>Our experience is idiosyncratic, but I hope you find my summary of our experience helpful.</p>

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<p>I’d recommend LACs that participate in the federally-funded TRIO program, which includes LD students that require academic accommodations. TRIO is a student retention program that supplements a school’s academic services department, and usually ensures more services with greater support for students to ensure academic success. There are many highly-selective LACs that participate, including Carelton College in Northfield (an idyllic setting in a small but vibrant town 40 minutes south of Minneapolis). St Olaf College, also in Northfield, also has TRIO, and is slightly less selective than Carleton. Both are excellent supportive schools with faculty often ranked as the “best teachers” nationwide. US Dept of Education has a list of participating colleges and universities on its website; participating schools range from community colleges to uber-elite colleges and universities.</p>

<p>Our son has a similar profile re: IQ range verbal vs performance. I’d avoid highly competitive “elbows out” schools, where everyone was a “Top 10” super-achiever, and aim to be in the “50% to 75% percentile profile” of class, rather than ranked in the lower-half of accepted-student profile. We toured a number of selective LAC schools in Midwest that had TRIO programs, and found that these schools truly provided a supportive environment, and accessible professors committed to their students. I’m a Ivy grad-grad, and found these LACs’ environments refreshingly focussed upon student success.</p>