Our school doesn’t rank or have val/sal. I think it is one of the best things possible to get kids to take a variety of classes including the many music, arts, foreign language, engineering, business, different sciences like anatomy and astronomy, etc. that our school offers that don’t earn any honors points. They do recognize everyone who graduates with above a 4.0 as a special honors graduate with some kind of cape which is typically around 20 students out of classes of about 650.
If they are stopping the ranking to avoid the jockeying to take classes that benefit GPA I would think going to the admin and explaining all she did for the ranking would not help matters and would further show them how right they were to change the policy. I would be peeved too but her high gpa will certainly be helpful in the hunt for merit aid and hopefully she can enjoy a few non point fun classes her senior year. Having interesting educational experiences in areas of passion are very worthwhile and helpful for things like writing college essays about if you are looking to financially justify every educational decision.
I’ve seen nothing but gaming to be #1, so I’m not surprised schools elinimated this. My son did better than #1, and I his true graduating class, #2 also beat out same keep #1. ( my son left in junior year). Colleges can see who,took gifted classes, who stayed in Latin 3 or 4, who had lots of easy classes. These are professionals doing the evaluations.
Op,
I agree with @sax.
It’s a disappointment to have rules changed mid-game.
We came from a non-ranking school so I don’t know all ranking rules. Nevertheless, if they have set up certain long range structures, they should be phased in and phased out. And it would benefit you child for them to try to find out answers and state their case. Adequate fair warning is important.
If the new no ranking policy sticks, then I would ask GC to include a comment about how kiddo was ranked 1 as of jr year when the school eliminated ranking.
And if the new policy sticks, then the silver lining is that kiddo should take all classes that interest kid in SR year.
Lastly, as a side note, my DKs went to a non-ranking selective school. I was happy that they didn’t rank and DD, who was probably at the top 20% cutoff attends Yale. I do realize that you are looking more at scholly money than admissions criteria, though. But non ranking did make less pressure for the kiddos.
@carolinamom2boys I missed that. I guess I should have slogged through all nine pages. Ole Miss gives Valedictorians and Salutatorians (or 1rst and 2nd rank) a $1,500 per year scholarship which stacks. I’m sure many other schools have similar scholarships. $6,000 is actually quite a lot of money for a stacking scholarship of this type.
@cobrat has stated many times that he had abysmal grades but very high test scores and got a nearly full ride to Oberlin. Seems to me that since this kid had both a high GPA and very high test scores, she’d be in great shape at any number of schools which give merit aid. You don’t have to be valedictorian to get great merit aid! I know the point about rank is moot for the OP, but I think people just aren’t considering all of the possibilities out there. The GCs should be helping with this. If they don’t have the time to help to that degree, they need to be referring their families to CC!
And not just the top ranks…think how many kids would no longer be in the top 2%, 5%, 10% (req’t for admission and/or scholarships).
One solution would be to have the IB/specialty program rank those kids separately. That would benefit the regular (majority) of the kids, but oh, how the special program parents would scream!
But a very important distinction is that roughly only a third of students who matriculate to these elite schools come from public high schools, like my pups came from. So it is arguably harder to get into an elite college coming from a public than from a private school.
At the private schools, kids are coming from situations where almost all the students come prepared for class daily - education is highly valued. At my pups’ high school of 900 kids, the majority of kids are chronically unprepared. But even then, not all publics are equal. We are from a much more modest area than some richer neighborhoods, who tend to send a dozen or more kids every year to elite schools - other than my pups, maybe 1 or 2 kids per year get Ivy offers. At the other end of the scale, many public schools might send one kid in ten years to an elite college, or never.
So our kids have to do more to stand out - simply doing the homework every day, and taking the most challenging courses available, getting straight A’s, is not enough to make them stand out. Taking 16-17 AP courses (including independent study and online courses) was their best option.
My pups also had to show their motivation, and qualifying for other State Awards/Academic Honors was one option. In our part of the country, the only way to be invited to compete for several of these awards is limited to one kid per school. Our schools chose class rank as a junior to determine who gets invited. My pups were invited to compete for, and won these awards. I believe this was one of several factors in them standing out, and being accepted to so many elite schools. Since the admission decision process is a closely guarded secret, we cannot know for sure.
So I respectfully disagree with your assessment that class rank did not matter to my family. If you understood how our high school operates, and the context of our state rules, you might agree.
Additionally, although my pups qualified for full-tuition scholarships at Flagship State for being Val, they chose not to attend because C and S offered them not only a much better course of study, they also offered a much better FA package - while need based, they will graduate without loans. Flagship State would have cost them more in the long run, but it was their safety option.
I get that class rank shouldn’t matter at very strong schools. But at comparably weaker schools, it is very important to kids at the top.
What you and many people here at CC are missing is that quite often, merit aid is not enough. There are very very few spots at the schools that meet full need. Additionally, GC’s vary tremendously - again depending on how strong the high school might be. At many public high schools, the GC is also the truancy officer and psychologist - they may be better suited to assist the kid whose parents were in trouble with the law, or the kid whose boyfriend knocked up her sister, than the kid who might apply to Directional State U, let alone helping research schools that offer merit aid. But I agree, it would be better for the students whose GC’s do not have the time to help to this degree, would refer them to CC.
Oberlin gives mostly need based aid…with some highly…very highly competitive merit awards that are precious few.
If @cobrat got nearly a full ride at Oberlin, it was likely need based aid…and has nothing to do,with his grades at all…except for acceptance purposes.
It was a game. people were having their kids race to the top. They were gaming the system, and it was basically not fair to the parents who chose not nor did not know to participate. Starting in middle school; kids would take extra classes so they could start in honors levels in high school. between 8-9th grade, parents would sign their kids up for summer school all summer so they would walk in as a freshman with more credits. Parents would make their kids take zero-hour classes in addition to summer classes every year- 8th -11th grades. My DS worked in the summers, went to a few camps, participated in events and hobbies and things he liked; and his class rank would drop every summer by about 20 points from the kids taking summer school and adding on credits.
the smart kids - who all had 4.0s unweighted, took IB, AP and very hard classes were all racing, and playing the game. One top kid’s parents decided not to have their daughter take summer school a few years, and her ranking dropped. So, the 2400/36/4.0 kid head to an ivy was not even near the first in the class - and that’s when the district said “Enough is Enough” – and instituted no more ranking. Kids graduate with honors levels now.
dont have a kid in the school any more, but i’m interested in seeing the ramifications with college admissions/opportunities/scholarships. I’ll ask around.
@thumper1, you’re probably right. I just remember asking him how he got a “full ride” with what he described as terrible grades, and he responded that he had really high test scores. Your answer makes more sense.
I am sorry for all of her hard work- I know it is disappointing.
I think the idea is to de-stress the entire high school process for the teenagers. Also the emphasis is now not necessary being THE top, but near the top, and balancing the coursework with other EC that will describe an interest or passion. Objectively, yes, National Merit recognition either Semi Finalist or Commended is still acknowledged in the app process. Colleges will still see the transcripts and note the level of difficulty of the courses, what was taken.
Regardless, your daughter seems so passionate about her interests, and I am sure she will still be able to choose the college of her choice and find a terrific match
Since yours did not attend the Flagship, and since your assumptions of the admissions process of the top ~10 is generally incorrect, no I would not agree.
That’s what test scores, including AP/IB scores, are for.
Full disclosure: both of mine attended a local public, in California no less, and both ended up in similar colleges to yours. And we were a need family; it was less expensive out-of-pocket to attend an Ivy than our instate Flagship!
fwiw: Our district has not ranked in years, but its really easy for the GC to ‘signal’ who is at/near the top: “while our HS does not rank, if we did, Sally/Johnny would be in top 2 based on GPA”.)
I know at least one application asked the GC if the student took the most demanding classes. Even though my son took music for years, she would have checked that box. Study halls, regular English (not Honors or AP), nope. I’m sure she mentioned that he took classes at the local U. Not being Val didn’t seem to make a difference.
My S1 was Valedictorian of his class, my D1 is in the top 1%…honestly my S1 had one outstanding EC and was active in a few clubs and had lots of community service. D1 had 40 points higher on the SAT and a few general ECs, she also has held a job for a year…overall, her offers have been much better than his.
Personally, I think schools should rank. I also feel that if they ranked when the kids started High School, that class should graduate with rankings. That being said, I don’t see that it “helped” my son in any way. It was an honor, a wonderful memory for graduation, but as far as scholarships and stuff - NO!
I feel for you and your daughter. It stinks. I would be so frustrated, but know that she will be rewarded for her hard work!
Actually, a portion of my near-full ride scholarship/FA was what some here would term a merit award which required me to maintain a cumulative GPA of 3.2+. Despite some parental concerns, I managed to stay well above that.
Granted, they may have changed the structure of their award since I graduated.
My thinking is that at the time I was applying, they were trying to get more applicants from public magnet HSs like mine to attend. Everyone who applied to my LAC from my graduating HS class was admitted.
From what I’ve gathered from younger alums from HS and college, that no longer seems to be as much of an issue now.
I’m not sure how competitive the merit awards at Oberlin are. My son did not apply for one (didn’t even know the awards existed) and received one anyway. I imagine that if they were that competitive, there would be an application process. We’re thrilled, nonetheless!
The girl could certainly take out loans too, as well as hold down a job, or even two while in college. It’s perfectly doable and could be used to pay for whatever isn’t covered by scholarships.
First, unless one’s lucky enough to have high paying skills in areas such as academic tutoring and/or computer teching as I and a few folks did back in undergrad, part-time jobs most undergrads can feasibly be hired for aren’t likely to pay enough to facilitate one “working through college” nearly as easily even with scholarships as in the past…especially distant past.
Especially if one doesn’t go beyond the 20 hour/week max recommended limit on part-time jobs so students have a reasonable time to study, sleep, and take advantage of EC/social opportunities college campuses offer.
Second, I find it interesting some parents feel blase with having students take on educational loans which could end up consigning students to constrained finances from student loan debt. Especially considering the numerous mass media accounts and likely personal horror stories from one’s social circles about how constraining servicing student loans even from public institutions could be after graduation. While I am fortunate enough not to have this experience beyond a small 3-figured loan I took out senior year which was paid back within six months of graduation, this seems to be an increasingly rare experience with younger friends.
Especially after attending a party* when I found even those who attended local public colleges were buried under student debt which I find horrifying to even hear about. Two friends who did pre-professional grad degrees(MBA, MIS) from such public institutions have debts equivalent to what I’d have paid to attend NYU with my miserly scholarship for 2 years AFTER ADJUSTING FOR INFLATION(~$70k in today’s dollars).
Granted, I was influenced by many from the Depression/WWII/Tweener generations which tends to be so debt adverse that loans are regarded as something to be avoided except as an extremely desperate last resort.
One seemingly popular topic of conversation in social gatherings including parties in the last decade with a critical mass/majority tend to be millennials is one's student loan debt. Was a bit awkward to find I was the only person in that group of partygoers in my age group and younger who had no student loan debt when asked.