<p>I don’t know anything about that LD, but this is what I getting…</p>
<p>Do you think that your DS chose his major because he thinks it’s a “validating that I’m smart major”? And, that he further thinks, “and it will get me a good job that people respect.”???</p>
<p>mom2-- you’re certainly right that NVLD kids want that validation, because they ARE ‘smarter’ than they often get credit for being. Their verbal abilities are surging ahead while the ‘performance’ (visual/spatial stuff) limps along behind. I don’t know whether it’s part of this situation, but it’s a good question, because they often do feel they have to prove themselves more than others might…</p>
<p>Sounds like any input from parents will fall on deaf ears, as with many teens. My ultimatum to him would be to seek help from his advisor/career center et al at his school. It is common for many students to take career center aptitude and interest tests. I did eons ago and can see their uses. Tell him that you insist he consult the resources at his school and follow their suggestions as a condition of you paying for his education. This ends the parent telling the child what to do with his major/career/life. If the school suggests majors other than those he thought of there is a reason he should be able to accept more than a parent’s wanting it. If he is unwilling to accept the advice of his school you can tell him he has no business being there. Shift the burden to him and his school- you are paying for their expertise in guiding him, not just the classes he takes.</p>
<p>First: Thank you everyone for some great ideas. Ever since he sprung the changing his major to CS & Human Behavior news on us, just before he left for college (Sat night) I had frantically thinking and searching for a solution. In addition, after he left without letting us know his grades I finally checked into myself, I know things just cannot continue as he wants to. His dad, more supportive of him than I am, finally concur. I do not want to waste “his time and our money” We had given him 4 years and considerable resources, I am now at peace we had done our best by him. This will armor us against his inevitable opposition and probably anger and resentment. My husband said he is happy supporting son till he is 30 and beyond, going to school. One consequence of not choosing to attend Landmark as suggested in an above post, at about $50,000 & more a year, is that we are able to be more flexible in supporting him for a longer time. The other reason was to be within commuting distance so we could support him more if necessary. The first year of college he was 600 miles away, he did not communicate with us and with his executive function issues he failed completely. </p>
<p>It was mentioned perhaps we were a little easy on him, and perhaps we were. What I see from son was a kid who gave everything he’s got at what he wants to do, and still not succeed. As far as I can tell, he works tremendously hard at school. His studies about 16 hours/day, 6/7 days a week. In fact we have to talk to him about balance in life. But he wants to succeed at what he wants so he works the way he do. It breaks my heart to see him struggle and in a way I admire his tenacity, even at the same time exasperated at his lack of self awareness. Perhaps this led us to be a bit easier on him and gave him more rope. He tries to deal with his executive function issues by using his Palm religiously. Wherever he can or remember, he tries to take the initiative without our interference, like his dental issues (impacted wisdom teeth) or his ADD meds. </p>
<p>goaliedad: He was dx by the neuropsy as NVLD, though of course, there must be overlaps. Aspies I understand do not usually have issues with Math, but I understand NVLDers do because of the visual spatial deficit. The neuropsy said he does not have discalculia strictly speaking, but disculculia like, just like he does not strictly have ADD, but ADD like symptoms, due to severe short term working memory deficits. Clear as mud to me.
Over last Xmas we finally figured my brother maybe an Aspie, so I am going to learn more about it. Maybe that will give me some fresh insights. That is a long term project however. My pressing concern is how to deal with son right now, as he just picked up a bunch of CS & Science course this term. Biochem, CS, Stats, and Micobial (sp?). I am afraid he is going to fail the term.</p>
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<p>I am not aware of any sensory integration issues and am not familiar with them, though he is somewhat clumsy - cannot do martial arts forms. I honestly do not know if he learns differently from others. </p>
<p>He is indeed very black and white in the way he perceives the world. I do not know if he is creative in his solutions. He is always a walking store of knowledge which used to surprise and delight us and anyone who knew him. I do know he is very good in creative writing, and writing in general. The flow and imagination and detail in some of his early writings was just delightful (I am biased of course but I won’t say the same about his sis, who is much stronger academically, so ). </p>
<p>I thought of accounting for him as well, if not in college than in some kind of certification program afterwards, though I am not familiar with forensic accounting. Husband didn’t think it will work because son is not great socially. Empathy and reading social cues are not easy for him. Social perception is one big deficit in his profile. He does not see it and see no value in therapy as I mentioned before.</p>
<p>Since he has an executive functioning deficit, it is probably difficult to figure out a path. It sounds like he is rightfully concerned about getting a degree that will lead to a clear path for employment.</p>
<p>You can not be there all of his life to guide and make up for the deficits. In your place I’d work with the neuropsychologist and a career professional to take a hard, pragmatic look at realistic career options before he makes any more educational decisions.</p>
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<p>We do understand his concern and share it, that’s the reason we supported his decisions with limits with clear signals it may not work for this long.</p>
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<p>This is the part where it keeps me up nights and cry. We do know we need a professional. He had been resisting. This is where we have to force our hand and impose our will finally. </p>
<p>I am reconciled I will be more involved with his life than I want to for the rest of my life. I look at it this way, we have friends who child has severe CP, Downs or other physical disabilities. My son’s disabilities are not visible but can be no less limiting, esp. with executive functioning issues, which shows its impact more in adult life. </p>
<p>My concern is that I do not cross the line to enable or coddle and stifle his growth. I found it difficult and second guess myself all the time.</p>
<p>munchkin,</p>
<p>hmom give good advice regarding the neuropsych and career professional evaluation. The bad news is that it seems like he very much wants to do it his way. Establishing a trusting relationship with such a professional is necessary before advice will be heeded.</p>
<p>Amazingly, your son sounds a lot like my Aspie son. The executive function, the inability to read people, the lack of good motor skills, black and white view of world, encyclopedic memory. There are differences, but there are a wide variety of symptoms on this spectrum. My son is also Bipolar as well, which makes it reaaaally interesting at times.</p>
<p>We have given up on the higher ed pursuit - thankfully he was fully on board with that as he wasn’t seeing academic achievement even in the computer subjects he enjoyed in the same way as his professors. He has a part time job as a grocery cashier (4 years now), which at times he needs his generous management to keep employed. Strangely enough, even though he has a deficeit in people skills, the interaction with customers on a daily basis keeps him from devolving further (Aspies tend to like to isolate) with people skills. And he really likes the positive feedback from customers. Makes him feel validated much like your son wants to be validated by his pursuit. It has been the one constant in his life.</p>
<p>So right now we are working on the long-term living arrangement. It will probably require a dx of permanent disability (psychiatrist indicates that is not a problem). If we can find a supervised living arrangement and get him stablely established, we can move forward with his making meaningful career/academic progress with his life.</p>
<p>It looks right now like you are still struggling with the academic development of your son. Once that is determined, then you will need to move on to how to manage the executive deficeit in the living arrangement. I would suggest that when you talk to the neuropsych folks, that you examine this next step (independent living) as well. You may find that it is easier to pursue independent living before you complete academic development. He’ll need it at some point.</p>
<p>The shame about kids like ours is that the world is not the simple place it used to be where a kid like ours could make a living at a simple job, living in an extended family arrangement. This society is good at dealing with the clear black/white cases of disability, but is poor at giving the person who might appear normal in casual conversation, but lacks those life skills (social, executive, etc.) a setup where they can be productive while getting the support they need.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to turn this into a downer thread, but I think the issue is larger than selecting a major here. I think you know that as well, though.</p>
<p>[NYIT</a> - VIP - Curriculum](<a href=“404 | Vocational Independence Program | New York Tech”>404 | Vocational Independence Program | New York Tech)</p>
<p>My friend’s Aspie son is attending the above program at NYIT (New York Institute of Technology). Her description of the program as it relates to her son—“He’s finally landed on the right planet.” As part of the vocational independence program, this year he spends part of the time attending college classes at nearby SUNY Westbury. For those student academically capable, the program busses them to the SUNY program to take college classes. He’s blossomed in the program.</p>
<p>In the link above, make a point of clicking on the “success stories” short clips.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, when was your son diagnosed with a learning disability? I am asking because I have noticed this behavior more amongst people who had their LD diagnosed in late middle school/high school versus people who had their LD diagnosed in elementary school.</p>
<p>As for my two cents on this, I think pretty much everything has been covered but seeing as though I am an LD college student I will give a slightly different perspective.</p>
<p>First off, when he tells you that he is working 16 hours a day 6 days a week, are you sure he is being truthful? I don’t know you or him so I don’t mean to be accusatory, but I have met way too many LD kids who pull the wool over their parents eyes on a regular bases. I am suspicious because if he was actually working on home work 16 hours a day 6 days a week all the time and still failing in school, I would be shocked that he is not not having a psychotic breakdown or running into depression (I am assuming that he does not have those issues since you did not bring them up).</p>
<p>This point aside, I am sure that he knows what his weaknesses are, it is incredibly difficult to have a LD and not have some sort of idea about what your deficits are. When he compares himself to the people around him, something that everyone does in some way shape or form, there is no way that he does not notice that there is a difference between himself and his peers if he is having the issues that you says he is.</p>
<p>From what I can tell, his main issue is is self esteem. He is trying to prove to himself that their is nothing “wrong” with him. He is obviously not picking engineering, CS, or research because he enjoys them since he can’t give any reason for choosing those fields. He is picking them only because he wants to prove to himself that he can do them. Until he owns up to the fact that he is not going to be able to do well in these fields he is going to continue to struggle. He needs to accept it and move on. Even if he some how managed to finish this CS degree, I doubt he would go to work as a computer programer seeing as though he has not demonstrated any interest in that area and would be miserable trying to struggle through programing for an entire career.</p>
<p>He needs to stop playing these games, he is wasting your money and his time in the pursuit of fields that he will never work in. It seems you have realized you defiantly need to take a strong stance with him although it will pain you, but you also need to make sure that he realizes that he is not in some way inherently inferior to his peers. Other posters have given you good advice on how to take a stronger stance with him and what kind of professional help is needed. Just realize that although it will be hard on you, he might actually end up respecting and appreciating you more for being tough on him. I now recognize that had my parents not been as hard on me in elementary and middle school I would not be where I am today and I thank them for it.</p>
<p>munchkin, just to say-- it sounds like you have been just wonderfully thoughtful parents-- and it is so much a matter of instinct, day by day and year by year-- your son also sounds like he really works at life and really has serious interests-- and that is a plus that no IQ test ever measures! I bet things will go well for him.</p>
<p>Wow! That’s an impressive IQ. And excellent grades, too.</p>
<p>One of the problems with math is that it is most reactive to emotional distress or lack of confidence. My S can get a 70 or 100% on the same math test just as a reflection of mood.</p>
<p>He found this so stressful that he decided against a science based degree, athough he got a 36 on the ACT science section and was one of the most gifted scientists in his high school.</p>
<p>It’s a shame that the black/white nature of the answer on a math test is a very high anxiety situation for some kids. One they find difficult to get through.</p>
<p>I think this is more at the heart of the your son’s problems.</p>
<p>I teach at a community college and work with many, many kids with all sorts of disabilities. Just to put it in perspective, we have 22,000 students. </p>
<p>I really question the conclusion of the counselor who said that none of these kids succeeds in science.</p>
<p>However, a PhD in science my be a pipe dream, however there are other things he can do. One thing that immediately comes to mind is a middle school science teacher where all his reading would be germaine and useful to others. Just an idea.</p>
<p>The courses to accomplish this don’t reach the stratasphere in terms of difficulty, and very little advanced math is required at the middle school level.</p>
<p>Darwin and James Watson (co-discoverer of the helical structure of DNA) were at one time the despair of their elders. Watson was discouraged from going into graduate work (with his measly 120 IQ – not my judgment) and Darwin was sent to sea after a string of disappointing C’s at Cambridge.</p>
<p>Another thing to keep in mind is my nephew’s experience: he’s a CS major at Georgia Tech. It’s taking him 6 years to get out, and he does have F’s among his grades. No one seems that perturbed and he is shouldering on.</p>
<p>However, he is a brilliant programmer. If your son is not, gently tell him that many jobs are being outsourced and it’s not a great growth industry right now. Not everything has to find it’s way back to his disability or difficulty.</p>
<p>Limitation is a sad lesson that I fear we must all learn sooner or later.</p>
<p>I wish you luck with your boy. It sounds like he has a lot going for him, he just can’t quite find the right fit.</p>
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<p>That was what popped into my head when I read the first post. I can’t comment on the LD issue but my son (who is still a senior) has been flinging out difference majors to us. They all have only one thing in common…they are jobs that pay a lot more money than average. It took me a while to figure out that was his criteria.</p>
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<p>I’m not a big fan of pushing kids into certain career fields but if you haven’t already done so, take him to a psychologist that specializes in career planning. They will put him through a battery of tests that should synthesize his strengths with his interests and make some suggestions.</p>
<p>Also, there’s nothing wrong with setting some limits and offering some guidance (sounds like you have done some of this). Some kids will flounder for years without an experienced adult to ‘mentor’ them. That mentor can be you or someone else but it sounds like he could use a little pushing.</p>
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<p>Yes - I can see my son in the same boat. What I told our son was he was to get through the first year of school and see what really interests him and if he couldn’t figure out what he want to do in a field that is interesting to him, we would do some research and help him come up with an idea but it has to be something he is capable of doing. It can’t be ‘hey, I want to be a neurosurgeon but I’m getting mostly B and C’s’. That’s not realistic. </p>
<p>Having bypassed my own passion for a ‘sensible’ degree (accounting/MBA) that makes me a lot of money, I’m a big believer in trying to find a way to ‘follow your bliss’ but at the same time make a decent living. I believe it can be done but it takes some planning and research. As a previous poster pointed out, we all tend to gravitate to those well-known career titles but in truth there are tons of different career paths all within the same field. You just have to think outside the box.</p>
<p>If your son believes that his major validates him as a “smart person,” then likely everytime he hears the family suggest another (possibly easier) major, he thinks you’re saying that he’s not smart. That’s likely the main reason for the resistance.</p>
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<p>I begin to see that he may have a self esteem issue now as so many people picked up on it. I do not know how I can handle the above situation. This is hard. </p>
<p>It is true discussions concerning his future were very difficult. Any slight suggestion that he be flexible and consider other options, esp. when faced with poor grades were met with hostility. On those occasions he would accuse us of being negative. </p>
<p>It takes emotional resolve to have a discussion with him regarding his future. </p>
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<p>I think our son is concerned with success. I think it was written in one of his evaluations. He had four. One was in junior high before hs. We had to fight with the superintendent, principal & teacher to get him support. Luckily the Special Ed teacher administering the test and the social worker were strong advocates for him. His grades were always a mix of As & Bs. More As than Bs, as we always gave him a lot of support. I can still remember the comment from the super. “His grades are fine. What is the problem ??”. I felt like one of those proverbial pushy parents then. To answer Gwen’s question : The 20 pt discrepancy in the VIQ & PIQ apparently just make the cut off for support. One test was in high school before college. The third was from the neuropsy after he failed first year college when the neuropsy gave his LD a name. </p>
<p>To answer firehose’s question, so in a sense he was dx late which is inline with what you posted. I wished I had paid for a private assessment much earlier, which gave us a clearer dx than the school system. He had support in HS, time and a half, and a comm skills teacher to help manage his work. He met with a social worker once a week to help with social perceptions, which he totally resisted and dismissed as a waste of time. Knowing what I know now, I wished I had understood and take charge of his LDs much earlier. We may have been able to do more remediation for him with better results. So we are not as good parents as Gwen Fairfax suggested. Thank you, btw. After his first year in college, he spent the next two years away, first with a private tutor who specialized in LD to help with his study skills & executive function skills. He also met with a social worker/therapist who specialized in NVLD. Again he resisted the social worker, telling us the sessions were useless. We stopped therapy sessions after a short while as, given his resistance, we thought it futile and not the best use of resources. From that experience I know without his buy in and cooperation it is very hard to help him. </p>
<p>The second year he spent it at a special school working on his brain - students do brain exercises from about 9 to 4 pm. The theory was based on neuroplasticity. He worked very hard, was a star pupil. At this time he also started stuttering, we think it comes from his brain being worked so hard. </p>
<p>He still stutters when he is overworked. That’s how we figure he was working very hard nowadays. </p>
<p>When he is stressed from his studies, he will take out his frustrations on us by being sullen and cross with us.</p>
<p>I agree with what mythmom has said. I also have to wonder about a counselor who reports that these students cannot get degrees in the sciences. </p>
<p>When my own son was in college and began to doubt his abilities, I found that counselors who had not taken advanced math and science classes themselves often had unrealistic perceptions of what it takes to be successful in these classes. As mythmom noted, anxiety can be a big problem, especially at the college level, since exams in math and physical sciences are often curved very steeply and it is very difficult to get a grip on performance after taking a test and VERY easy to blank out in panic during a test, even if the material is familiar. My children have been in classes in which getting just a third of the answers correct can result in a high B.</p>
<p>On top of everything else, it seems to me that your son might have jumped into college coursework without high school prerequisites. (You did write that he avoided math classes to keep his grades up.) It seems to me that it is imperative that students who have difficulty with math but need it as a tool to reach their goals not avoid it, but try to work extra hard at honing problem solving skills and conceptual understanding before giving up, and not attempt college level work without having done the high school classes with extra effort. </p>
<p>I would also point out that by college, many students are used to working together in groups to tackle classes in math and physical sciences and engineering, and report that this generally works better than trying to study in isolation. (My daughter began in high school.) Even students with excellent backgrounds at the schools my own children have attended are used to taking advantage of tutoring sessions and office hours on a regular basis. If your son lacks this experience, it might not just be a lack of aptitude that is holding him back.</p>
<p>I was also shocked by his schedule - it would seem overwhelming to me even for a very good student. </p>
<p>And LOTS of students who are able to continue in sciences do hit some very rough spots.
At my son’s school, it was not unheard of for students who are now employed as engineers to have had to take a class two or three times to get a C or better.</p>
<p>I would however try to get your son into a situation where he is adequately prepared and counseled with a sympathetic professor, to see if he can get some successful classes under his belt again.</p>
<p>And, I would give your son some credit for trying to stay in the major - I have known students who have quit when they have gotten ONE B or C.</p>
<p>munchkin,
I just want to add that goaliedad may be on to something with forensic accounting. You say he is concerned with success – I know someone who is a forensic accountant, and his profession has made him incredibly wealthy. It seems, in this economy, this type of skill does really well.</p>
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<p>I slightly misrepresented what the counselor said. This was what she said to the best of my recollection. I asked her, in her years as a counselor and being an expert in NVLD, does she know of any students who succeeded in studying science. She hesitated slightly, as if thinking, then said “No. Usually NVLD students go into the arts.”</p>
<p>I did not base my conclusion of son not good in math and not able to pursue science based majors on what just one counselor said. I also draw it from my years of tutoring him myself and the numerous tutors we hired. I also researched on NVLD and Discalculia. I honestly think it’s a really tough challenge for son. It’s just not Math subjects only, but Chemistry subjects with a calculation component. His tutor said, son just do not have the understanding of concepts. He said all son could do was learn by rote. 
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<p>He did not fail any of his math courses this time around. We found a specialist tutor (someone who tutors LD students) in Math, Chemistry and Physics to tutor him. So being not adequately prepared for his courses should not apply. His first year back in college, his first term was straight As in 3 courses. 2nd term was slightly lower. To our great surprise and delight and pride, he passed Physics , which he never took before in high school with an A (with some but not a lot of help from dad). 2nd term he took 2 physics courses, which he did fairly well on, without any support from us as he really wants to make it on his own. He took chemistry and a biology course that term. He barely scraped by chemistry with a 52%. It surprised me greatly that it was considered a pass and he was allowed the take the higher courses. Because of his fairly good grades in physics and biology he ended that semester with a B- (?). Someone mentioned with LD kids, you just never know what will trip them up is really true for our son. </p>
<p>I don’t want to bore people with so many details, I just want to say that it’s just not Math as a subject he seem to have problems with. It is any subject with a math component. The physics was an exception, like another poster mentioned before, son had in the physics teacher a great teacher who made physics came alive for him. He took 2 courses from the same professor, which he did well in. </p>
<p>We make sure he is not overloaded with the max of 4 courses per semester, and tried to mix them with easier subjects like psychology or biology. He had a 54% for a 2nd chemistry last semester and a 52% for microbial. I honestly think it more than the lack of preparatory courses for his poor grades given the tutors and his own hard work. </p>
<p>I want to be clear, we are willing to continue on taking this major, as long as he does not fail and get on probation or be asked to withdraw. We are willing to let him finish his degree and then perhaps go to a vocational school to get some job skills. It is him who now wants to change into a Computer Science and Human Behavior major. Given what I know of his short term working memory deficits, visual spatial deficits and the past failures (3X) in taking the introduction to Programming course, I am at the end of my rope.</p>
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<p>I have great admiration for his tenacity and capacity for hard work. </p>
<p>I also thank the lucky stars he has never shown signs of depression. We probably coddle him a little in recognition of the pressures even though it is self inflicted. He would occasionally take out his frustrations on us by talking back. His words and accusations can hurt to the quick. Within a certain limit I had given him the leeway and overlook the misbehavior. For eg. if he snaps at me just before the finals I would overlook it instead of getting into a fight. Usually when he calms down he would either apologize or try to make up for his misbehavior. It is probably not ideal but I don’t know of a better way.</p>
<p>Nothing is ideal. A kid who snaps at his mother just before finals is, imo, a normal kid whose relationship with his mother is good enough that he can trust it to withstand some of his stressed venting. </p>
<p>Being driven to succeed, gain prestige, prove oneself…seems to be a real hallmark of NVLD. It is just SO frustrating to know how smart you are, and then not be able to demonstrate it. (Just look at the bragging/bashing among the students on here, for a sense of what a kid is up against, in the perception of his peers.) The more you say the more it sounds as if your son may be on a treadmill he doesn’t know how to step off of without losing face. If you can find some way to help him – I mean, there have been very accomplished, admirable people who aren’t microbiologists. He clearly has so many admirable qualities, as well as a great intelligence. (PS–and whose intelligence doesn’t have a lesser side, if not an obvious flaw?)</p>
<p>He seems to be doing well enough from what you report. Many of us have to adjust our expectation of grades downward. For the most part, kids do not get the grades in college they did in high school.</p>