Need advice: Son is interested in majors he has no apptitude for

Parents Forum
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<p>My son is not doing well in his chosen major, something in the sciences. He had always gravitated towards the science majors. He said he was interested in research. I know from young he did exhibit a interest in scientific discoveries. He was and still is a prolific reader of science. </p>

<p>The problem is, he has no aptitude for science and science related topics. He has NVLD in addition to pretty severe auditory processing issues. I have, with not much success tried to steer him towards majoring in the humanities or arts. </p>

<p>I think part of his resistance was his fear of not knowing what he can do with an Arts degree when he graduates. The other part was his interest in scientific research. </p>

<p>With his struggling grades in the core courses of chemistry, math he finally realized his dreams of grad school and research are non-existent. This past Christmas we arranged for him to talk to a lab technician doing the kind of work he would be doing with his degree and all of a sudden 1 day before going back to college, he announced to us that he is going to switch into computer science and human behavior. He said he is not interested in routine lab work so he might as well change major now !! I think he is being unrealistic again, as his previous 3 attempts at taking computer science courses resulted in 1 F, and 2 withdrawals. I once asked him what he found very difficult in one of the courses he dropped, he said JavaScript. <em>Sigh</em> I cannot imagine how difficult it would be for him to do coding in for eg. C. One of his lowest scores in his IQ tests was short term working memory, in addition to visual/spatial/organization. </p>

<p>His other major weakness was executive functioning. I recognize and am reconciled we would always need to step up and be involved much more than usual in his life. </p>

<p>I am really stumped on what is the best course of action for us and for him. Should we let him go on with his choices and fail ? He already failed once, for his freshman year. We had been giving him a lot of rope since his high school graduation. He picked his majors without much interference from us, as it should be. We keep hoping he will learn what his own strengths and weaknesses are. He does not seem to have. I do not know if it the LD or just him, I found he has an astonishing lack of self awareness. </p>

<p>When we consulted the neuropsychologist who finally gave his LD a name, the neuropsy posed this question to him " Math was your worse subject throughout school, why did you choose to study engineering ?" My son had no answer for him. This was 3 years ago. I do not see that he has become more self aware or logical over the years. </p>

<p>Should we give him an ultimatum ? Should we make him drop his computer science choices ? We had tried to reason with him and outline consequences to him but he gets very defensive. I had suggested to him, without success, to seek career & aptitude counseling at college. He also had always resisted therapy/counselling. He never thought there is anything wrong and that these sessions had helped him.</p>

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<p>I think he needs to talk to his academic adviser at his college. It is important for the adviser to be aware of all the LD issues, otherwise the advice given could be compromised.</p>

<p>Even without any LD problems, it is very hard to switch into CS without adding extra schooling time - CS requirements are usually very extensive, and the classes have to be taken in sequence.</p>

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<p>If he has problems with math, computer science is out.</p>

<p>Does your son show an aptitude for humanities and arts? When I read your post, it struck me that you seemed to be starting from the position that the only two possible college trajectories were engineering and computer science on the one hand, and humanities and arts on the other.</p>

<p>Especially at large (usually public) universities, there are many different fields that involve research, but are not necessarily laboratory and math heavy. Just as a couple of examples, some universities have entire schools of natural resources and conservation departments. </p>

<p>Of course, there are dozens of other fields that do not fall into the science/engr or humanities/arts dichotomy. Your son does need to spend some time and effort investigating the options. If the school he is at does not provide enough options, transfer.</p>

<p>Just one more comment. I suppose I am probably wading into water over my head on this one, because I have no experience whatever with learning disabilities, but it seems to me that the emphasis here should not be on what is “wrong” with him, but finding a field that combines his interests and his strengths. I think a really positive attitude would help him reconsider his ideas of what he is interested in.</p>

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<p>This is a difficult situation. I went through HS knowing my strengths were in the humanities, and have bounced around in college through different majors in the arts and sciences department. I am dissatisfied with my classes, my career options, my life, and don’t have a very good GPA, to boot, despite my massive natural inclination - as many have claimed - towards the subjects I’m studying. I have always had a passion for astronomy. I have wondered what it would have been like to follow my passion, instead of my strengths. It is a very tough position to be in, to feel you lack the aptitude for those things you care most about.</p>

<p>In fact, part of the reason for his Fs and his Ws may be lack of self-confidence, not necessarily lack of ability.</p>

<p>I think, perhaps, a change of attitude is in order. Rather than saying, “Your IQ test says you are bad at Y, so do Z”, say “I can’t continue to pay for your education if you continue to receive this kinds of grades. There are a lot of options for you. Have you tried tutoring? Do you do your hw early so that you can speak with your prof during office hours about questions you may have? Are you part of a study group? Etc. There is no reason for you to be receiving Fs, you are smart enough to do better. It’s not an appropriate grade, I won’t accept it, find a way to fix it.”</p>

<p>The university usually has its own system for “ultimatums.” Is he on academic probation?</p>

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<p>It doesn’t sound to me as if he would find succeeding in the humanities any easier. Humanities courses usually require high-level listening and discussion skills, and a good memory and the ability to make connections across a wide range of knowlege. (At least, GOOD humanities courses do.)</p>

<p>Is he receiving any physical or other accommodations at his school? I know from discussions elsewhere that some kids with NVLD/auditory-processing issues do, and some choose to matriculate at schools where the typical classroom can more easily accommodate their needs. </p>

<p>It sounds to me as if he needs the correct accommodations more than a change of major into something he isn’t interested in. But I am not an expert.</p>

<p>I also had thoughts about the kind of fields that fall into neither the strictly science/math area nor the humanities/arts. There are a vast number of more “vocational,” for want of a better word, majors at large Us: physical therapy, speech/language pathology, agriculturally-related or nature conservation-related fields, etc.</p>

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<p>My first reaction is that if this were my child I’d probably approach this differently … my son has a strong interest in science research but isn’t naturally a scientist … the next question is what is the superset of jobs involved in research science and do some of those interest my son. OK, he won’t be the research scientist … how about the lab tech, or statistian, or previous work researcher (literature searchs), or lab manager, or etc.</p>

<p>It seems to me there are many more jobs in any industry than the first job that comes to mind … and I want to help my kids chase their interests/passions. One example from CC … each year a few kids talk about getting into the film industry … and a bunch of very practical parents pop up and advice against because the odds of becoming an actor/director/producer are so bad … that is very true … but some day watch the full credits at the end of a feature film; a ton of folks work on movies or work at the companies the production company hires. I believe if people are flexible that following a passion can lead to gainful work.</p>

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<p>I agree with most of the posters that it isn’t a science or humantities answer. There are so many areas that cross-over. The post above about the “movie” industry is a good example. Every industry has a multitude of job classifications that span the distance between pure lab/engineering to humanities (think about a technical writer or a specifier or supply chain management.) There are “soft sciences” as someone pointed out such as environmental biology, psychology, various sociology concentrations. He is best served by laying out everything with his advisor including his learning issues and having his advisor help craft a path to graduation that fulfills his passions and his learning strengths. Perhaps his career service office can administer a Birkman to help him identify his areas of strength.</p>

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To me, this, along with more discussions with the LD department at his school, would be the breakpoint.</p>

<p>“We cannot continue to pay for your schooling if you will not make the effort to find out what you like and are good at. These services are provided for you. Take advantage of them.”</p>

<p>If your son’s school does not have an LD department, then perhaps transferring to a school that does would be in order.</p>

<p>Or how about a semester at a school like Landmark College, dedicated to helping those with learning differences? [Landmark</a> College | The premier college for students with learning disabilities and AD/HD.](<a href=“http://www.landmark.edu/]Landmark”>http://www.landmark.edu/) Perhaps it’s just a question of his learning how to learn with his specific challenges.</p>

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<p>Does he have any aptitude for humanities and the arts?</p>

<p>I think many people are painfully unsuited to pursuing an academic degree of any sort. A practical vocation could be more realistic (and not natural resource science as suggested by some!).</p>

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<p>It sounds as though you’ve been fighting this battle with him for a number of years. It also seems as though you’ve given him more than enough time on your dollar to “find himself” in college. He doesn’t want to listen to your suggestions, but he’s willing to use your money to fund his college experience. Maybe it is time to take a firm stance and force him to see the reality of the situation. After explaining your point of view again, set up a verbal contract with him. Tell him that you will pay for one more semester and if the grades in his choice of classes are not acceptable (make clear cut standards to him), then you will not continue to finance his college education. Perhaps leave a lifeline such as you will finance a 2 year technical or trade program later on if he decides to go that route.</p>

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<p>He may just need some time combined with tutoring, careful selection of colleges after time spent working on strategies for coping, while volunteering or working.</p>

<p>My brother is an electrical engineer after retiring from the air force.
He has lots of lds mostly undiagnosed, went into the air force after high school, because it was either that or end up in jail for selling drugs. Smart, but it took him 3 or four tries to pass the Sargent exam. But he was able to eventually finish university while moving around the world, and the university even hired him as instructor for a time.</p>

<p>My oldest has a math disability among other things. When she initially toured her college, she put down “undecided” for major , instead of biology, because she didn’t want to be confronted with sitting in on a math class. :wink: it did take her 5 years to finish instead of four but she did graduate with a bio degree from Reed college ( Inc calc and statistics and a year of o chem).
Don’t remember what her gpa was however, luckily Reed gives need based aid / not merit.</p>

<p>I think strong interest and intelligence along with hard work( which admittedly people with learning differences have to get used to expending more time and energy on), can make up for natural inclination.
Many people in the sciences have learning differences, and it is a very broad field.</p>

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<p>My D has serious NVLD too…though no auditory troubles, and I understand NVLD can be vastly different for boys than girls. I’ve had to watch very carefully to see where she needs help, or accommodations, where she might just as well give up, and what she loves and can do well. It can be REALLY frustrating, because she’ll be doing wonderfully and one aspect of something will trip her up. But I’ve discovered that if I start with her passion for something, I can help figure out a path for her-- because she has unique strengths that are just as strong as her unique weaknesses. (For instance, she bonds very easily with people, so if she can make a bond with a teacher, she will often be able to learn something she could never get a toehold on otherwise.) </p>

<p>So that’s the perspective I start from, to say-- if your son reads widely about science, and prefers that to reading about history, or to playing the guitar or whatever…I’d do everything to help him stick with science. But there must be one aspect of science that’s not hard for him-- can you find that and start there, finding a teacher who’s receptive, who can help him as he searches out a particular direction? </p>

<p>It seems like a great sign that he loves to read–makes me think he may surprise you. I wouldn’t want to keep spending money on an education that isn’t working, either…but to have a passionate interest is a real strength, and worth following out if he, with your help, can find a way to do it.</p>

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<p>I think he can switch into CS, unfortunately, his cumulative GPA is probably good enough, but he will fail, as he failed the introductory course once and had to drop it twice.</p>

<p>Graduation within a reasonable amount of time is a pipe dream and we know and do not expect so. Of course this is not what we tell him. He is expected to take at least 4 courses in regular terms and make up the shortfall by taking summer courses. If he can find a job in summer and get some good work experience he can delay graduation. He is a reasonably responsible and good kid. </p>

<p>His college fortunately have a rather good support system for LD students. His LD adviser has written a book on NVLD and knowledgeable. The Disability center (or whatever they call it) knows him well. I, with son’s permission, had talked to this LD adviser. She was the one who said, in her over 20 years of dealing with NVLD students at the college, she had not met one who succeeded in science based majors. She said they usually succeed in Art majors (as in B of Arts). </p>

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<p>That was how we approached it. We knew from the outset being a Phd in Biochemistry is probably beyond his reach. However, we do not want deny his dreams, so we said to him and had an understanding from him if his grades are not good enough for grad school, after his Bach. he would go to a CC and perhaps get a certificate in any number of technical fields - lab technician, for eg. That is also why we arranged for him to talk to a friend who works for the CDC as a lab technician this Xmas. She had an B.Sc. and then a certificate. My son decided that kind of work is “too routine for him” ! He does not recognize or accept his own limitations. </p>

<p>I have also tried to talk about other careers within a company with Genetech (which was his dream company to work for) without success. Son is a good writer, actually in my biased opinion he is a very good writer, I suggested he may be able to write for them. Again, that went nowhere. </p>

<p>His high school grades were ok, by mostly avoiding math courses. His grad GPA was 4.2 weighted, 3.5 unweighted from a well known public HS. Except for Math - his biology, chemistry course grades were fine. His long term memory is superb, so are some of his verbal scores, about top .5% to 1% of the general population. Verbal IQ was about 140 and Performance IQ at about 120. So I know he has some ability. His teachers used to remark at his extensive knowledge of a topic. I know he can reasonably succeed at college if he chose a course of study that is not in his weak areas but where his strengths are. The issue I see is that he would not and we cannot convince him to do so without resorting to “we cannot support you if you do this and will take away your funding”.</p>

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<p>How about writing for the lay public regarding the increasingly technical world?
My daughter was a tech writer for a while and although she likes more hands on things, it is a growing and needed area of expertise.</p>

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<p>Data visualization is another possibility, translating data and concepts into compelling and/or easily understood charts and graphics. If he’s interested in human behavior, then this kind of field–digesting and synthesizing technical material so tha non-techies can understand it–might be up his alley.</p>

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<p>Looking at this just as a parent, and not as a parent of an LD child; here’s what I think.
Yes it is time to give him an ultimatum. Not a “take the course I like or you’re out”. Not “quit science or you’re out” ultimatum. But as Chedva and NYsmile have touched on, this student has not found himself- and may not even be seriously looking. Further, he repeating failed attempts at studies.
Regardless of how much money you are able to pay for the gift of his education, there should be a limit on how much you are willing to pay for the gift of his education. He needs a concrete timeline and defined expectations on what you will continue to give in exchange for his clearly defined efforts. Point out courses you think are well-suited for him, remind him of school counselors and any other services his school may offer. Advise him to take advantage of those services. Then the choices are up to him.
It isn’t fair to you for hime to expect that you have to pay for any course at any time no matter what the result. And, it wouldn’t be fair for you to stop paying without providing him with a clear outline of what you expect and setting a timeline for that expectation. </p>

<p>I can also speak from experience to say that sometimes a student’s performing poorly isn’t always due to an LD, or due to course of study. Without specific guidelines and expectations, sometimes it can merely be due to a student’s attitude due to not grasping that this opportunity for education is the <em>offer of a limited time; subject to end</em> as they might say on Tv.</p>

<p>It may be that college isn’t right for him, or it may be that college isn’t right for him right now. Let his actions decide that after you present your new approach.</p>

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<p>“He does not recognize his own limitations.”</p>

<p>This can be a blessing and a curse. I can understand your wanting to encourage his optimism and can-do spirit and not be seen as the one who crushes his dreams by putting down some very realistic lines in the sand. </p>

<p>However, it is my impression that maybe you are protecting him a little too much. At some point you will need to be that voice of reality. Your ability to pay his way through college will end at some point and unless you want to be supporting your son post-college indefinitely, he will need to find a job/career that works as a safety net. People without LDs train for and take “good enough” jobs all the time… this is not an issue unique to the LD world. As parents, we hope that the “good enough” job will morph into something more rewarding later on – but it feels like you are unwilling to just say things bluntly and follow it up with realistic limits on your funding.</p>

<p>It may be that the life lesson your son needs to learn right now is the idea that his parent’s financial support <em>does</em> come with strings and there are limits. It might be the case that your son will actually discover that intersection between his passions and his abilities NOT when he is given carte blanche, but when he is given an actual set of limits. Working within limits can spur on creative solutions.</p>

<p>There might be a bit of a bumpy landing that needs to happen, and from my perspective, it is probably a good thing. It feels like there is too much parental protection going on all in the name of the kid’s LD. You can certain choose to go as you have been, but just know there are other ways to look at the situation. </p>

<p>You are not an “ogre” to have some limits. It is similar to the conundrum of what to do if one’s kid wanted to be a ballet dancer and at age 18 it was clear there was passion but not enough talent and quite frankly the wrong body-type to continue on in the field as an actual classical performer. The 18 year refuses to consider related fields - teaching dance, arts managing, etc. Some parents might continue to fund the training. Many wouldn’t. Not a perfect analogy, but again, another way to look at the situation. Your child is grown – college at some point stops being another “enriching” perk we give our kids. (But some parents do treat it that way the entire time. Your call.)</p>

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<p>Your NVLD almost sounds like an Aspie to me.</p>

<p>Focused on a subject of interest without regard to aptitude or how to use it.</p>

<p>Some social issues (you mentioned executive function, IIRC).</p>

<p>Not cluing into the obvious social signals that he is off in the weeds academically (I am assuming here that his LD Advisor has had similar talks with him regarding the issue at hand here).</p>

<p>He learns differently from others as well, I take it. (Sensory integration)</p>

<p>I would say the interest in “research” is intrinsically motivated and satisfies a need to be in control of his environment (based upon knowledge of facts) more than a need to answer the great unknowns for a society (or profit). Computer Science is also an area that appeals to those who want definitive answers (a sense of control as well here).</p>

<p>Here is a quick personality test to think about when considering what type of career to pursue… When solving a complex problem, does he look for the answer that is most likely to be judged correct by someone else, or does he come up with “unique” creative view of the facts and the conclusion that most would not have come to?</p>

<p>This will tell you whether he needs to be in a creative job type (“unique”) answers or a profession where it is all about the predetermined outcome. (I suspect the former of these 2)</p>

<p>I’ll throw out a profession (that he probably isn’t interested in, but might actually be qualified for) where believe it or not, you can go either way - accounting.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, it does not really take calculus to do accounting, so don’t dismiss it because of math.</p>

<p>Forensic accounting is a rapidly growing field where an ability to “think outside of the box” goes a long way in seeing things that “don’t quite fit”. It is research based, but a talent for seeing things differently can be very useful. The ability to write is critical (believe it or not) as witnessed by these complex derivitives that brought our financial system to its knees could not even be explained (in common English) by the people who created them.</p>

<p>Even if accounting seems “not entertaining” to his sense of career, you still might take this line of thinking to examine other careers (criminal profiling for example) that rely on a “different” look at the facts and an ability to explain things coherently.</p>

<p>If you can get him to focus on his communicating ability (and taking pride in it), the subject matter “buzz” becomes less important. Instead of saying no to his weaknesses, try to get him to recognize the value of his strengths (communications).</p>

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<p>I had no idea a 20 pt spread between verbal and performance IQ could count as NVLD. D’s score spread is over 60pts! Plenty of people with that performance score can do well in science. Does his LD counselor have a sense of what part of science is troublesome? Is it more the auditory processing problem that holds him back? I’m sure you’ve looked into all of this…but…he sounds too smart and motivated to be stubbornly pursuing something that’s beyond his abilities. Low grades following hard work are usually pretty persuasive–how does he explain the low grades to himself? How does he expect to explain them in a job interview? I wonder if an internship at Genentech or wherever (or the process of trying to get an internship) would help him–either he’d find a way to fit in and be useful or he’d be unhappy and start to look in another direction.</p>

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<p>Science writing, science journalism, scientific editing are all possibilities – but does he enjoy writing? </p>

<p>It’s unusual that he is so determined to stay in science when not receiving the positive feedback of good grades. And it’s surprising that he is still interested in CS after failing an intro class.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t want to discourage his true interests, but I think it’s reasonable to insist on career assessment and counseling at his college.</p>