<p>Southeast..I am talking about parents who are capable of working and choose NOT TO WORK, to get FA. IMO...the FA calculation should take this into account...just my opinion. I think that whenever $$ is given to people, they will choose not to earn it if that is an option. I don't respect that. It is a free country and I am entitled to my opinion. I do not know everyone's personal circumstances, and if there are valid reasons for not working, I get it. That is not who I am talking about...I am talking about those that game the system. No one should say how much an IVY grad should be making...but THEY ARE WORKING!!!!! 'nuff said.</p>
<p>FA is given to students, not parents. Why should any student be penalized for his/her parents' choices?</p>
<p>And I solidly agree with many who point out that Ivy educations can be well used in areas in which the rewards are not financial but altruistic or esthetic.</p>
<p>Here here for those who use their own precious educations to help others or add to the cultural heritage of us all.</p>
<p>And thank goodness their kids can get the educations they earn by their grades and participation.</p>
<p>You know it's real crap with the comments that one chooses not to work so they can get financial aid. I left a fairly lucrative job four years ago to take care of my father during chemotherapy and be with him during his final months. Due to circumstances, it was a good thing I wasn't working so I could take care of my youngest while she battled depression and an anxiety disorder. A year later, my husband faced a serious illness and I was able to stay by his side during a two month hospital stay and be with him during recuperation. Yes, it has dramatically effected our income and my daughter qualified for huge scholarhips based on need, as well as many merit awards. However, we have no extra money for anything!!!!! No SAT prep courses. No summer adventures. Not likely she'll be able to study abroad though her scholarships would likely pay for most, as we have no additional funds to provide her with additional living expenses. Anyone that thinks someone cheats the financial aid system by not working, well, not working, also means no funds for anything else. Just getting by with food, utilities, basic necessities.</p>
<p>So if a student #1, whose parent's choose to work, gets out of college with quite a few student loans, and student #2, whose parent's didn't work, gets out of college owing only a small amount, and it's all about the student and not the parent, then didn't we just penalize #1?? I know kids who will owe a lot of money when they graduate. Their parents earn a good living and work hard, but, certainly can't afford to pay it all. Why should their child start his/her life in debt?? Again...if it about the student...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am talking about parents who are capable of working and choose NOT TO WORK,
[/quote]
And once again, I ask, who is to make that determination? If I stay home to take care of my elderly mother, is that a "choice not to work"? Someone could easily say, "You chose not to work. You could have put your mother on Medicaid and stuck her in a nursing home. So tough. No help for you." </p>
<p>Do I have to send my medical records if I have a disability that prevents me from working? Must I even disclose it? Or should momray justify her decision to nurse her father, child, husband? It's no one else's business!</p>
<p>I was a lawyer in a large law firm. Hated it. Went to a small firm with a pay cut. Much happier. I then got burned out practicing law, so became a business analyst, which left me with much more time to raise my daughter. Is my "earning potential" to be based on what it would have been had I worked in a large law firm? And where would that firm be? NYC? I "could have" decided to move to NY, but I didn't. So wouldn't that be the "fairest" baseline?</p>
<p>There is no way to administer the type of "choice paradigm" that you posit. Financial need should be based on what the need is, not on what you think it "should have been" had the parents made different choices.</p>
<p>I am a late stage gynecological cancer survivor myself...I went back to work after surgery and chemo...complete with hair that had just grown in...I was on disability for the better part of a year...I couldn't work. And, I will tell you, something that I learned...the ability to work is a gift. I have been blessed...most of my cancer friends with my diagnosis are no longer here...so I continue to live each day, working hard, showing my children that there are "no excuses" to getting up and getting on...I admit...maybe this colors my opinions...but I could certainly have the excuse to stay home...these years may be my golden years...we are never out of the woods with my diagnosis, and, yet, I am so happy to have the chance to contribute to my children's lives. Life may not always be easy...but it is beautiful!!</p>
<p>You did not answer Chedva's question, foto2gem. Is caring for an elderly disabled parent instead of working full-time under your definition choosing not to work? </p>
<p>If it is, then there is something very wrong with your argument from a moral standpoint. </p>
<p>If it is not, then how does the Fin Aid office decide whether a specific case is a parent choosing not to work? Does the Fin Aid office even have a right to know about our private lives? Should we tell them?</p>
<p>"So a child of Ivy graduate who is making less than $60,000 not only taking the Financial Aid from another deserving inner city parent child but also the place of a better deserving full paying student."</p>
<p>POIH, I get the feeling that you are thinking of your own child when you write about a better deserving full paying student. Maybe I'm just reading too much between the lines. You are sounding more and more as if you're railing against the entire legacy benefit for the Ivy League. As others have said, a private school gets to make its own rules. The Ivies decide who to admit, and how much aid to give to whom. A student who honestly fills out their application and financial aid forms is not committing fraud by applying. That same student and family is not committing fraud or taking advantage if a school makes an offer based on that application. I don't understand why you are blaming the student or their parents. Would you similarly blame well-off families who apply to non-Ivys and who receive merit-based aid for taking away money from poor inner-city kids? Some would, but somehow I suspect you wouldn't. </p>
<p>By the way, if Barack Obama's kids apply to the Ivy League and have anywhere near the stats to attend, rest assured that the school will not be regarding them as URMs, but as children of either a president or an incredibly famous politician, depending on what happens in November. I think there are very very few kids on CC who have the academic star power to outweigh that kind of admissions hook. Is that "fair"? That's entirely up to the admissions committee.</p>
<p>The point made in the thread is being lost by attack on POIH. It is not about POIH but about a concept of ‘Need based Financial Aid’.</p>
<p>From the three families described in post #80 , only the third family should qualify for the ‘Need based Financial Aid’ and should be provided assistance as under no circumstance this family can produce funds to support even a UC tuition.</p>
<p>The 1st family can easily take a loan on the home to provide for education if the family value Ivy education. The 2nd family can move to a cheaper area to provide for education if the family value Ivy education.
But the 3rd family in no circumstance can generated the funds and so should be provided assistance.</p>
<p>I think parent should be ethical in making this decision whether it is any good to have an Ivy education by lying to grab FA dollars that can help genuinely needed person to attend the same institute. If an Ivy Institute today has two openings (with one FA) and can take out of the three above family and another who is willing to pay full tuition with all candidates being equal, then the two spots will go to Legacy (FA) and full paying. While if the legacy is considerate to not lie then Columbia can take the legacy and poor family child (FA).</p>
<p>mythmom: "FA is given to students, not parents. Why should any student be penalized for his/her parents' choices?"</p>
<p>Sure then why students are penalized if the parents did a good job of making a nest money for themselves. Those parents who worked hard and saved for their retirement or rain days are not given option to keep that money for themselves but are asked to pay in full for their children tuition. If these parents choose not to spend on their children tuition then the institute will penalize their childrens by asking them to take hefty loans or attend a community college.</p>
<p>This is strange we find so much support for the children of parents who are bad citizens but won't support the children of parents who have been nothing but good citizen of a great country.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove: "Would you similarly blame well-off families who apply to non-Ivys and who receive merit-based aid for taking away money from poor inner-city kids? Some would, but somehow I suspect you wouldn't. "</p>
<p>I'll never take away merit awards to poor inner-city kids. If today all institutes move to a merit based awards like Olin at all levels then there will be no issues. Consider UK, every citizen pays low tuition. You can go to medical school for $6000. Under that circumstance it doesn't matter who gets the scholarship.
Problem here is that if your family makes $60000 or less you don't pay a dime but if you make $70000 you may have to shell out $30000 to send your child to the same institute.
That is why so many Ivy graduates scam the system as it is a big difference for few dollars you make annually more than the other guy.</p>
<p>"I think parent should be ethical in making this decision whether it is any good to have an Ivy education by lying to grab FA dollars that can help genuinely needed person to attend the same institute. If an Ivy Institute today has two openings (with one FA) and can take out of the three above family and another who is willing to pay full tuition with all candidates being equal, then the two spots will go to Legacy (FA) and full paying. While if the legacy is considerate to not lie then Columbia can take the legacy and poor family child (FA)."</p>
<p>POIH, no one is lying in your scenario. All three families tell Columbia (since you've specified a school) the information Columbia asks for. Columbia does not ask about home loans, property taxes, home maintenance, bills for health insurance, or commuting costs. They ask for income and home value. They ask if you are a first-generation college student, and they ask about legacy status. </p>
<p>That's it. That's all they care about of the pieces of information you laid out. Columbia then makes its own choices. You may not like that they do not consider more information that might make your own child look "better", but that is Columbia's perogative. It is in no way unethical for people to follow Columbia's ground rules instead of some rules that POIH has devised. Your beef should be with Columbia, for not asking for a detailed household annual budget and financial history from each and every applicant. </p>
<p>"This is strange we find so much support for the children of parents who are bad citizens but won't support the children of parents who have been nothing but good citizen of a great country."</p>
<p>This might be my new favorite piece of hyperbole on CC.</p>
<p>^^^: I can only say one thing that Ivies can make a person literate but not educated. </p>
<p>But look at the affect of what it actually causes to the student psyche. Recently we went to Princeton on college tour and met a student and we asked about the resident Eating club system. Student mentioned that he is not a member of one of these Eating club as it is much costlier than independent eating. So we thought he must be on need based scholarship but later found out he is a full paying tuition. The real surprise was that Princeton will increase your Financial Aid to cover Eating clubs.
So now students of Princeton legacy who first get in easy on top if are on Financial Aid will be part of these Eating club while the full paying students of the hard working parent will be saving money here and there as they might be feeling guilty of pulling out so much from the parent in the first place.</p>
<p>That really sucks….</p>
<p>I am guessing the OP is frustrated with a particular family he knows who is gaming the system. In the big picture, the system works to a point, in the individual cases there can be huge disparities and that hurts.</p>
<p>What if your kid got into an Ivy or Stanford right before all this new aid came out and you have $150k in loans whereas a student with your financial profile the next year has no loans- ouch!</p>
<p>I know a talented kid who is very smart and very slick, she got amazing accolades and support of her high school, sometimes at the expense of others. She was groomed for a HYPS school, got in, this is 5-10 years ago, and got the great "no loans" package when most other schools still had loans. So she got the tip of being the chosen one from her HS and she got the better financial package (most schools did do loans to low income back then) and she got the prestige and she got the Wall street IB job after grad.</p>
<p>Other kids, not that much less brilliant, went to decent schools, but were not chosen by the HS and did not have that much more money, but even in schools with aid, they had half loans- therefore, the kid not chosen in HS for putting together the best package got a less prestigious education and loans, and less prestigious, lower paying job offers.</p>
<p>In the big picture it works, if you are the one who is next to that chosen kid, it hurts.</p>
<p>Maybe the OP knows a family who is seeming to abuse the system?? Ancestral home is not the definition I would give to a 40 year old home- I picture a 100 year old home/estate in the family. Most of our parents would be in 40 year old homes if they had remained in one place. I don't know where you are or about your taxes, if they own a pricey home in CA and it has not changed owners in 40 years, then the taxes are crazy low, whilst the person who bought the house next door is paying waay more.</p>
<p>I would suggest that you may not know what is going on behind the scenes, some people give the impression of living large when they are truly frugal; maybe they are gaming the system? But it's like doing your taxes, if you follow the rules, no one can fault you for making choices. Maybe they moved into the home to take care of an elder and their daily life is hell, maybe they were gifted the home and are making out like crazy- no way to know what goes on behind closed doors.</p>
<p>I think the frustration when seeing one person whose life fits the system perfectly when yours just missed that perfect aid/admit situation is really tough, but there is not much any one can do; unless you think there is actual fraud rather than lifestyle choices</p>
<p>I understand the OP's argument--I am a senior caught in a similar situation.</p>
<p>Although a graduate of Yale Law School, my father has decided to not work more than a few weeks a year. This puts me, to my great sadness, on the financial cusp of FA at many colleges. It will be unlikely I will be able to afford any private schools except HYPS, where I would most likely get fabulous offers.</p>
<p>Kicharo,</p>
<p>If he had worked more frequently each year, you most likely would find yourself still unable to obtain FA at many schools (at least need-based aid). The more income a family brings in, the less financial need exists. His working only a few weeks a year actually can be seen as beneficial when applying for aid, as the overall income is much less than it could have been.</p>
<p>Have you run your figures through an EFC calculator yet? Have you looked at the aid that is available at the schools you plan to apply for? The outlook may surprise you at many schools...as many have modified their institutional policies and more students find themselves eligible for institutionally based need financial aid awards. Also, look at the potential for merit aid...merit aid can play a HUGE difference in the financial outlook.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Parent ability to make money should be considered while making decision regarding need based financial aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>By your perverse logic we should be getting more financial aid. Neither my wife or I have a college degree so we shouldn't be making this much money, right?</p>
<p>"
Although a graduate of Yale Law School, my father has decided to not work more than a few weeks a year. This puts me, to my great sadness, on the financial cusp of FA at many colleges. It will be unlikely I will be able to afford any private schools except HYPS, where I would most likely get fabulous offers."</p>
<p>Not true as there are many private colleges where a student who is HPYS material would have an excellent shot at good merit aid. This includes some top 25 colleges.</p>
<p>Actually, because my family hits the mark right now to receive little need-based financial aid at almost all colleges, it is not helpful for him to not work. If he were to work, my family could afford to send me to just about any school. </p>
<p>Also, financial offers have been known to be greatly reduced based on parents being "willfully under/un-employed." </p>
<p>I am looking into merit aid, but is highly discouraging that I know I will never be able to afford many of the schools on my list, including my first choice.. Why should I even apply?</p>
<p>Are loans not an option?</p>