Need help figuring out a list

This is long, but I’m trying to answer the questions I know will be asked in the first page.

D21 background:

Just got her first B+ in AP Lit, which she thought was 3rd or 4th highest grade in the class of maybe 40 kids. The rest of her grades are split about 50/50 between A and A+. Will end up graduating with 10 AP’s, which is the max allowed by the school. Should graduate 1/400 class rank, she will have a better idea after the end of this year but I think even with the B+ it will hold. Certainly will be in top 10/400. Took PreACT cold and got 32, so I’m guessing with some prep ACT will be 33-35. Will take in the spring.

Solid but not outstanding EC’s. Travel soccer player year round and will be 4 year varsity letterwinner, but probably not playing in college. Golf, Student Council, FFA (agriculture projects). A few local leadership things, nothing state or national. I’m assuming will have good recs.

In other words, she is what is referred to here as your typical average exellent student. White girl but from an underrepresented state, fwiw.

Probably pre-med. Right now, 50% med school, 25% dental, 25% something else, and she has no idea what that something else might be. Definitely not a business major. Leaning towards majoring in either History or Math (still doing pre-med) if it is feasible.

She appreciates music and art, but has no talent and is aware of it. Doesn’t hang out with the theater crowd. She likes learning and reading for fun, but is pretty focused on moving forward towards goals and not just learning for learning’s sake. Her friend circle is mostly smart, motivated and athletic. She says she wants to be able to have some time to relax, and she can be a typical lazy 16 year old, but overall she’s kind of the “work hard, play hard” type. Pretty much always going 100 mph, whether on activities or school, or planning something with friends.

My financial situation is that I can probably swing any school that purports to be full need. I did a spreadsheet with NPC’s of several of them, and while there is quite a bit of variation overall it is doable. I can also do our in-state publics. OOS publics are probably not in the cards.

I’ll put my reviews of the recent tours we took up elsewhere because this is already too long. But here’s what I have gleaned out of D21’s visits to Hamilton, Rochester, Cornell, Bryn Mawr and Wash U in StL, with drivebys at U Penn, Haverford and Colgate, and familiarity with our state flagship and local diretional U.

Open(ish) curriculum is a high priority for her, probably her #1 priority. Otherwise I’m thinking a pre-med History major is going to be filling all of her electives with things like Organic Chem, and she wants to be able to explore more. Ideally a true open curriculum is great, but she is probably taking a smattering of everything so flexible distribution requirements are probably fine too. Rochester works great for her interests for example.

A bit leery of too big or too small. Cornell seemed too big, Bryn Mawr too small. Rochester seemed about right, although it sounds like still 200 kids in the pre-med classes. Bryn was apologetic that she may hit 40-50 in her pre-med classes.

Not really a fan of the rural locations. Weather was bad so no one was outside, but I still think Hamilton and Colgage really pushed her towards avoiding rural. Suburban is fine. I thought U Penn would turn her off, but she’s fine with urban too.

Maybe it was just our tour guide, but Bryn seems a bit too SJW for her. D is liberal, but lots of little things just seemed too over the top for her. I think in a bigger school like Brown it might be easier to meet the non-SJW types, but it seemed like they may dominate at Bryn. Not sure if that is accurate, but that was her impression.

She isn’t ruling out women’s colleges, but leaning against. Smith may still get an app because of the open curriculum.

She really liked Wash U, but it seems like a meat grinder for pre-meds. Rochester seems difficult, but not as much weeding out for the sake of weeding out. Please correct me if I am wrong about either one.

We are probably doing one more set of East Coast visits, not sure exactly when. Trying to hit Grinnell and Macalester at some point, they aren’t close to us but we are within driving distance occasionally so we will probably hit them too. But the reality is that she won’t be able to visit everywhere on her list.

Today if you asked her to pick a school, it’s Rochester. Or maybe Brown, even though we haven’t actually visited. I’m not sure who else should be on the list. Would love some guidance. Thanks.

How about Vassar, and Wesleyan University in CT?

When there’s no over-riding specific need then you go back to the basics, so CTCL schools and the other usual suspects. We like Muhlenberg in Allentown, PA at our house: good balance between Greeks, athletes and theater folk, decent merit aid, good academics, relationships with medical, dental and PT graduate program schools, nice location away from but near NY/DC/Phil, etc.

If she like Rochester, she should also look into Case Western.

I wouldn’t describe the majority of the students at Roch as athletic, more nerdy (in a good way!) It’s not a rah-rah school; sports aren’t very big. It’s too bad she didn’t like the setting at Hamilton because that sounds more like what she’s looking for.

Smith is my secret favorite, and looking like my kid’s first choice. If BMC was too over the top liberal, my guess is that Smith will not be a good fit.

When you’re looking at the openness of a given school’s curriculum, you might take into account how much of the distribution requirements can be met by AP credit.

Because med school is so expensive, it might make sense to consider out of state publics with good merit aid. If you have a target net price in mind, people can suggest likely schools. AP credits taking care of distribution requirements is likely to be the case for those schools, too.

Yes, too bad about Hamilton. Academically, it would be ideal for your daughter’s choice of major within a flexible curriculum that would simplify her pre-med planning. (If she chose math as her major, for example, she’d need ~9 math courses and ~13 courses related to pre-med expectations, leaving space for ~10 unrestricted electives.) Regarding its setting, I hope you spent time in the village of Clinton and also got a sense for the suburban amenities available in nearby New Hartford. For a flexible curriculum similar to Hamilton’s, Smith should be considered.

Rice has gotten steep to get into on account of their generous FA, but seems like it should be on her list. It’s in a major city but doesn’t have an urban feel on campus. Mid-sized with a great social experience based in the residential colleges. Lots of opportunities for an athletic student who isn’t competing in college to participate in the various athletic competitions among the residential colleges (“Beer bike” being the most prominent but lots of other intramural sports and healthy competition among the colleges). Ideologically balanced and relatively apolitical. Tons of shadowing/volunteering opportunities for premeds through the nearby med center which is the largest in the world, and top-notch premed advising. History department, in particular, has very well-funded summer research opportunities, and being a premed history or math major is certainly manageable in terms of requirements. (Also, open door policy as far as changing majors if interests shift.) Demonstrated Interest is important.

Agree that CWRU is another one to look at. Also Vanderbilt, Tulane, Tufts (especially good for pre-dental)… Carnegie Mellon (particularly if she veers toward math… though FA isn’t a slam-dunk there)… and the Claremont Consortium schools.

Is your underrepresented state in one of the reciprocity groups, like WUE or MSEP? Those can be a good source of affordable safeties.

If Carleton isn’t too small, she might like the feel there.
Agree on looking at Case, Vandy, Tulane, Tufts. Also take a look at Northwestern, William and Mary, maybe Northeastern?

Lots of great suggestions, I’ll do a bit of research on them and maybe come back with more questions. Thank you.

A couple already that come to mind. How is math at Vassar? That seems to be a weak point, both the department reputation but it sounds like quality of instruction as well. My guess is that in an ideal world she takes a math class or 2 and same with history, and then decides what to major in. So having good options for both would be good. Otherwise Vassar sounds good though.

Hamilton was just a bad visit. We had a several hour flight delay the night before, and got to the hotel about 4 am, still 3 hours away from Hamilton. So we skipped the info session and just did the tour to get a couple hours more sleep. They were on break, it was cold, windy and drizzling. There was no one around, lots of empty buildings with the lights off.

On the positive side, we were the only ones doing the tour, so we walked around campus for an hour chatting with a current student. He loved it there, and did as good a job selling it as could be expected given what he was working against.

I think she might give them another chance. She realizes it wasn’t accurate, but it still left an impression that is hard to shake. I will check out New Hartford and what they offer, that could help.

My concern about most of the above are the curriculum requirements, but I’ll look into how strict they are. Wes, Smith, Vassar the political climate. She’s ok with liberal, but not with every other student being a SJW. And maybe that’s not what Bryn is like either, but that’s the impression we got from the tour guide.

Also I guess I’m concerned about weed out classes. She is ok with having to work hard. But if the plan is to take a bunch of kids in the 99th percentile and making sure half still fail, I don’t think that’s the right place for her. Even if she survives, I don’t think she will like that culture.

@aquapt I’ll check out reciprocity agreements, thanks!

I’ll chime in about WashU. My son is a double major (Biology/History) planning on premed. Along with a CompSci minor.

WashU does have the reputation where certain classes are considered weeders. General and Organic Chemistry have that reputation. They are taught well, but are extremely intense.

The first General Chemistry class is actually more Physical Chemistry/Quantum Mechanics and has tripped up a lot of kids even though the main professor for the course (Loomis) is considered one of the top instructors in the department-he’s also the grad school advisor for the Chemistry department.

Introductory Biology is not difficult, but the instructors are pretty poor. A good background from AP Biology helps. The intermediate/upper division courses are taught well.

WashU tends to be cooperative instead of having cutthroat students.

The History department is very good with the exception of maybe 2 instructors. 5’s on any 2 out of 3 of the AP History courses (World, USH, Euro) will give you all the credits for the first 2 introductory classes for History majors. Students generally write 2-3 essays of up to 10 pages for the upper division History classes.

Most classes in the department do not have finals. It’s just the reading that is time consuming-expect to read 100-150 pages a week (son is taking Modern German History post 1918 and an Iraq War History class along with his major classes for Biology and a CompSci class this semester).

I might add Vanderbilt to the OP’s list as well for premed along with the suggestions of Rochester, CWRU, Rice, and Tulane.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Emory for premed. They are also reputed to have a highly rated History program.

For LACs with a good science/premed focus, College of Wooster and St. Olaf might be good to look at as well.

We found Smith to be more than ‘every other student’ being a SJW -more like every single one. There were a few things D liked about Smith but it wasn’t the right atmosphere for her.

We recently visited Hamilton and have visited Wesleyan as well. Hamilton struck me as a good middle ground among the NE LACs as being rigorous and intellectual yet pretty friendly and (per the tour guide) supportive. We had a good overall visit experience, but the location, while beautiful, is a drawback for us. I would suggest giving Wesleyan strong consideration. I think they are strong across the board and pride themselves on the open curriculum. The small town, accessible location is very good; Middletown isn’t fancy but is a good college town (IMO). I do hear that pre-med is pretty intense, but I guess that’s the case anywhere.

Someone mentioned Wooster. We have visited there as well — amazing science facilities, great grad school admit record, and a beautiful campus. They also offer generous merit air for strong candidates like your D.

Those uncertain regarding Hamilton may want to watch The Sterile Cuckoo. The idyllic scenery of the film endures as an essential aspect of the current collegiate experience at Hamilton.

Vassar #49is rated similarly to Hamilton#47 and Wesleyan#51 on Niche’s list of math programs.
How about #48 Washington and Lee?
Or Davidson#65?
Otherwise your state flagship with AP credits may offer best combination for open curriculum and variety of students.

These Newsweek articles may offer some ideas suitable for your daughter’s setting preferences:

https://www.newsweek.com/25-most-desirable-suburban-schools-71867

https://www.newsweek.com/25-most-desirable-urban-schools-71889

Amherst. Open curriculum, fabulous new science center, strong in the Humanities as well. Not rural, not urban. Collaborative environment. Could check a lot of boxes for your D.

Yes, take a look at Amherst.