I wouldn’t wait to get a lawyer, The superintendent and school board will react differently if a lawyer is involved.
I believe the programs that detect plagiarism rely on very close wording so still not sure how the friend was able to keep up with your daughter’s reading.
Peer editing is entirely different: the paper is already written.
A family member is a college professor and recently had a similar case. It is common for both parties- the copier and the copied- to be accused. As I said, intent is important and that is key here. The school is also to blame for not providing better education. My family member gave a chance to redo the assignment and did not reduce grade. The university students got a warning and further education.
You need a lawyer- repeat. This may become a mental health issue for your daughter. Hire someone who specializes in education. Arguments are 1) intent and 2) severity of consequences, meaning grade reduction and plagiarism on the record and 3) inadequate training on this issue by the school. Intent is crucial.
That said, your daughter had so many other options. She could have referred her friend to the teacher. She could have talked over the assignment with her friend without giving the friend her own content. She WAS a party to cheating. And her friend’s own education suffers from that, which is the point of all this Cheating hurts kids in the long run.
I don’t mean to be harsh. I am just being honest. I think you have a case but you won’t get anywhere without a lawyer.
I do not think you are being harsh, I appreciate your response. I am just trying to figure out my next move so appreciate hearing all sides.
As far as the peer edit, my daughters paper was done in this case. It had already been turned in and graded as she has a different teacher. In a peer editing situation, if she gave her paper to someone to look at (which happens a lot in her school) and that person decided to copy it and add her words into their own, then not sure why she would be at fault. Guess I am trying to make the comparison that in either situation there is not an “intent” on my daughters part.
I also pointed out that if I plaster the Beetles lyrics on my wall and then decide to copy them and take credit on my own without consent to do so, would someone hunt down who wrote the lyrics and then they would also be fined? They would not because regardless of people having their words, it doesn’t give them the rights to copy them.
And agree, it already is becoming a mental health issue for my daughter. She has cried for 3 days straight, she hasn’t been able to focus in her other classes and can’t study for other tests she has. She hasn’t been able to eat or sleep. It is taking a huge toll on her mentally and physically.
The girl told her she did try to get help but the teachers are not available after 2:30 and the paper was due at 8am the next day. The girl stated that the teacher assigned it last minute due to the end of the marking period. It in no way excuses her behavior and I can understand her parents using that as a reason to explain why she copied. But shes 15, at this point me berating a child for her poor decisions is not going to help this situation. She is remorseful and knows she was wrong. I have to show some grace to a 15 year old girl for just making a really poor decision. Trust me, thats a whole other issue that my daughter feels so betrayed by this friend.
So we did speak to a lawyer. On Monday we will officially hire a lawyer and go from there. What is our next steps? Do we document everything and send yet another email and explaining everything? Do we mention we have a lawyer? I do not want to make threats, thats not the best way to handle it. BUT I do want them to know I am willing to do whatever needs to be done since I fully believe my daughter doesn’t deserve the punishment.
BTW the Common App will no longer ask for info about disciplinary issues starting next year. So now you are just lawyering up about a lowered grade in one quarter of one class in the sophomore year.
We do block scheduling. So this isn’t a class that is a full year. One quarter is half her final grade. If her grade goes from an A to a C because of this, it would be statistically impossible for her to bring that up past a mid B and that “C” will show on her transcript. Make no mistake that I realize a C is not the end of the world. But I also know with having other kids go through the college process that schools do not like to see a “C”. And regardless of my thoughts or anyones thoughts on that, a C is a big deal to HER. It is also a mark on her discipline record which I am assuming is attached to her transcript.
If you do mention a lawyer, and I am not saying you should since the lawyer can contact them her/himself, so it with a smile and indicate it is just to clear the situation up. Yes, no threats.
Noone should be sharing papers before grading. The friend could not have produced that paper without your daughter sharing hers verbatim. So you can see your daughter was a party to the plagiarism.
I do believe the lawyer will make a difference. Issues are lack of intent, consequences too harsh, and inadequate education on cheating by the school. Maybe the lawyer will come up with something else.
I know from my family member professor that intent is very important, as is naivete and lack of knowledge. If the lawyer can negotiate a warning that is not on the record and an alternative assignment without the grade drop, that would be great.
Your daughter does need to understand that as kind as she is, she did do something wrong. Not to feel bad about herself but because that helps for the future. It is very clear she was only helping.
I believe the deeper problem is that schools foster a sort of us versus them mentality where the kids bond together against demands from the school! As well as the insane pressure about grades (versus learning).
ps the friend’s parents should NOT be excusing what she did. I mean they can be kind about it and try to find out why she was so desperate…sounds like the assignment timing was unfair. Sympathies to all!
I really appreciate your very thought out response and for you taking the time to respond.
We have had a long talk with ours multiple times because of this. We explained it isn’t her fault that this child waited to do the assignment and even if her teacher assigned it without much time given, it still isn’t my daughters responsibility to help her or anyone at that point. She did truly feel bad that the friend didn’t even understand how to do the assignment and believed her when she said she asked her teacher for help and the teacher wasn’t available. We also explained it doesn’t excuse or justify her actions to steal from my daughters hard work. Sadly my daughter will never help a classmate ever again because of this. Painful lesson learned.
Do you suggest we send an email and cover all the details on what happened and copy everyone involved? The lawyer we spoke to said its good to have documentation in writing.
Oh come on now. Your daughter will never help a classmate solve a math problem, give advice on how to write a more compelling introduction to a paper, suggest a better way of tabulating data for a science project.
I think sending an email to all parties involved detailing what happened is a good idea if that doesn’t exist yet, but I would have the lawyer look at it before you send it. All further communication needs to be in writing or with the lawyer present.
If you have hired a lawyer, you need to be addressing these questions to them and they need to be guiding your further interactions with the school, principal, school board, etc.
Also, I am a little confused how reading an essay over FaceTime to a class mate could be picked up by cheating software, which usually looks at strings of words. I would be 100 percent sure there was no document sharing, pictures taken, or even pausing to let the other student write down what she said. The facts will be important and you need to know all of them, good bad or indifferent. Nothing would be worse than going in saying one thing, having the document produced, and seeing it was a virtual replica.
I would not communicate again with the school before talking with the lawyer. But provide the lawyer with all communications so far with the school, anyone at the school.
I think what a lot of u s are saying is that we fear your daughter did more than read her paper over the phone/Facetime because the friend had to have had some exact wording to alert the plagiarism program. So definitely make sure! Again, we know she was trying to help.
Your daughter should have access to training from the school on how to help a friend. Sharing actual content is not good, even if she was using it as an example. But explaining the assignment is fine. Schools blur things by making work collaborative, allowing peer editing and so on.
I do think the lawyer can show some responsibility on the part of the school in terms of training the students.
I can see how good students would not want to have a C on their transcripts. One of my kids had a first and only C on the transcript in the fall of senior year, tried to ignore the request from the ED school for the fall grades, but ultimately sent it and still got accepted. It’s a pandemic, afterall.
Since the OP is concerned about college acceptances, I wonder if anyone worries that lawyering up to overturn policies that teachers themselves support might have any effect on the student’s eventual letters of recommendation. This family does not want to accept the consequences of the school policies - might this reputation for not respecting the teachers have any impact on how this student is viewed?
First, I spoke to her teacher. I got the feeling from her that she didn’t agree with what happened to my daughter and legitimately felt horrible this happened. She mentioned she was very upset as well because in her words…my daughter is such a good student. She mentioned her hands were tied because it was the supervisor of the department who makes the decisions. My daughter has many at that school in her corner over this, including teachers who I have spoken to. But it doesn’t involve them and its not like the school is asking for a character witness about my daughter. But that said, getting them to at some point write letters of recommendation for my child isn’t a concern of mine.
In this case, “lawyering up to overturn policies that the teachers themselves support” is an interesting question. Intent is the issue. The OP’s daughter’s intent was to help the other student when the teacher presumably wasn’t available. Then cheating happened, without her knowledge.
Given the academic consequences, with grades being a higher metric of measurement now to colleges, the daughter is getting hosed. Intent, lack of student training, and the other family taking full responsibility gives a pretty strong case that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime that was committed against the daughter - being made an accessory to cheating -without her knowledge.
I think this is where I am at, and I do appreciate hearing all sides. But the issue is the intent. She didn’t help this other student with the intent to allow the student to copy or give consent to the girl copying. The girl has admitted my daughter did not know anything about this and admitted she was struggling and my daughter was trying to help her. YES now we realize that my daughter was not educated enough to understand that helping in the way she did meant what it does now. Trust me, nobody is denying that part at all. She had the best intentions and was not being malicious. Both girls have stated that my daughter read from her paper. School is saying that even doing that, means my daughter lent out her wording.
What is written in the school/district’s code of conduct? Just for her future info, some colleges have it stated in their school code of conduct that sharing your work (regardless of intent or what the other person does with the information) is considered academic dishonesty unless sharing the information with another student (through peer editing, etc) is specifically spelled out in the assignment directions/rubric or the course syllabus. Sorry she’s having to go through this, but she will definitely need to understand it for college. She may encounter a “never share your work” policy in the future.
and again if we are being honest. I do not want to lawyer up and get away with something just because I lawyered up. I do not agree with their policy. period. I do not think that if one person takes full responsibility and the other party had not give consent to copy the paper that my daughter should have the same punishment as this student. I just do not agree with it, whether its their policy or not. As well as “lending” to me means you gave them a physical copy of your paper because thats how I interpret it. My daughter did not understand the policy because if she had she wouldn’t have even read it to the girl.
Your reluctance to be part of this situation is noted. And still shouldn’t dissuade you from figuring out all options now. There won’t be another chance later.
The other family taking responsibility after their daughter made a mistake is important, too. Kids should be able to redeem themselves after a serious lapse in judgement, and the other family is doing their best in this scenario.
this is what their policy says regarding the person who was copied "Any student who lends his/her work is subject to the same consequences. "
It does not describe or state what lending means. And truth is they do not go over this with the kids either in great detail. Its still our responsibility to read and understand it. But me reading I would still assume that “lending” means a physical copy and lending someone physical copy of something. example " I lent my friend a book to read". But its clearly not what it means to the school.