Yes we already provided the other family our daughters. They will provide hers. They already offered. Because there is no question her daughter copied mine (since again she admitted that). I have just not had the desire to read the other girls because it’s just going to really piss me off even more.
Also imagine being on FaceTime with someone and you read a sentence. Is it really that hard to copy the sentence as they are saying it? If they read another sentence is it really that hard to understand how someone can be writing it down as the other is saying it? I guess I don’t feel the need to question it because it doesn’t seem like rocket science to me and that complicated to do.
I’m sorry you and your daughter are going through this. I am both a teacher and former lawyer.
You absolutely are right to hire a lawyer. There is nothing wrong with that. You are using the school’s appeal process and you have every right to hire an expert to help guide you through that process.
If you do prevail (or at least secure a less harsh outcome), your daughter will be better off. As a teacher, I believe as strongly in fair process as I do in anti-plagiarism rules.
Now, as to the questions upthread: yes, many of us are wondering how your daughter’s friend was able to copy parts of an essay verbatim. My students often ask me to slow down or repeat words because they have a difficult time transcribing what I say. When that happens, I slow and repeat myself. In other words, I usually know when someone is copying me word for word. Still, I also believe your daughter never meant for her friend to copy her essay.
In any case, I hope you receive a very quick resolution so your daughter can process it all and move on. Best of luck.
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@cgemaj Would you, through your lawyer, be able to request a copy of the the Turnitin report (or whatever plagiarism software they used) that flags the similarities?
It seems that at the university level, more leniency is possible than public high school, and professors have more discretion. Public schools may have rigid protocols. Unfortunately, your daughter did “share work,” but does that wording apply the same way to a quick reading over the phone as handing someone a paper to copy?
That said, I share the curiosity about how the friend was able to write exact words while they were read. She may just be a fast writer.
Collaboration does not involve giving work to someone when it is finished, and it does not apply to someone copying either. Collaboration means working together. If they had been assigned a group project, for instance. It really does get blurry in atmospheres where kids are allowed to help one another, but frankly, this case isn’t that blurry.
The problem is that the friend could not have plagiarized without your daughter’s participation, so in the eyes of the protocol, she also cheated. These policies are preventative in a lot of ways but are not clearly outlined for students, often.
Hope the lawyer is helpful. I have experience the magical change in response from schools when a lawyer is involved. This case may help others. The school needs to educate kids better, the policies should be more lenient for a first offense with a warning and more education. What your daughter did WAS participation in cheating but she did not realize it so INTENT was not to cheat or get away with something.
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The school may have a policy but how was this conveyed to students and families? Do students sign off on school policies each year? Was it mentioned in the syllabus or on Zoom? I think notification and acknowledgment will be key.
Agree that also FaceTime homework sessions and Zoom collaborative small groups really muddy the “lend” issue.
Agree. I’m a former journalist and we didn’t always use recorders. Most of the time we took notes or typed along when someone was speaking - at normal cadence. Still do this in meetings. It’s not hard. My daughter often takes notes this way as well and I’m sure virtual schooling has upped skills like this. I think there is a lot of gray here that a lawyer will be able to identify.
Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it. I just had a 2 hour drive and thought a lot about this. Someone asked if the kids are educated enough to know what is right. Answer to that is no. I think if mine understood that reading her essay to someone meant she was “lending” it out well she wouldn’t have done that. When I “lend” someone something I do not read it to them. I physically give them a copy. I argued with the supervisor that even for myself, an adult, I don’t understand what their use of “Lend” means. And in this case I am 100% certain my daughter didn’t either. Does she. now? You bet! But that said it just again shows there was no intent.
And back to the writing things. Have you seen teenagers? They text a 100 words a minute. I just am not finding it that hard to believe they can write a 7 word sentence on a 15 year old level when someone recites it.
But really thank you all for staying respectful.
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A plagiarism report like Turn it In gives a percentage of match with another student or an external source. Apparently over 20% is a problem and sometimes, when other factors are looked at, even under 20%. Your lawyer should have a copy of the report from the plagiarism tracker as well as both your daughter’s and the friend’s work.
The copied wording has to be pretty exact. Students can change one word and fool the program. If it is possible to get that kind of exact wording from listening to your daughter read, then the friend has very good auditory skills. I still wonder if it was recorded,
What does “share your work” mean? Is this an outdated prescription? Does it really apply to reading quickly versus emailing or handing over a hard copy? What about the effect of COVID and also online learning? Lots of questions!
Good luck! For the sake of privacy I understand you may be done with this thread. I tried to PM you but your account is private. Still, I hope we can hear if there is any good news.
I work at a college so I understand the pressure students are under. But you don’t need to read your answers to someone for them to understand how long an essay should be or how detailed they should make it. From an educator’s perspective your daughter basically dictated the answers from her graded assignment to a friend whose section hadn’t done it yet. At our college that would earn both a zero. Did your daughter admit to sharing her work in writing or is this only something she told you? Either way, I wouldn’t do any more communicating with the school. Let your lawyer handle it. Good luck.
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Your child did nothing wrong. My kid attends a school that has done no plagiarism training, that I can see, in an entire year of high school English. Actually, the kid’s district has national notoriety, and so this thread strikes a chord for me, as it were.
Since your child handed in her essay first (if memory serves correctly), then why would she risk cheating? So lack of intent and proper student training is clear. As mentioned upthread, this is an excellent case. And since the school did not train the students correctly (as seen by the teacher support), the penalty should not be what is currently about to be meted out.
Especially since the other student will be penalized less, grade-wise. “Teachable lesson” does not reasonably apply here, IMHO.
I agree with your assessment, However at my family member’s college (where she teaches), first offenses get a warning and further education, and the consequence in terms of grading is at the professor’s discretion.
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We would be happy with a warning. I do not think her teacher would lower her grade. I think it’s the supervisor who is following school policy.
I don’t know how to change from private but I also tried to message you and got the same message that you are private and I couldn’t.
The friend could have recorded it as well.
It is possible that the substantial word for word copying might be from the friend recording. In that case, school plagiarism protocols have not caught up with technology. If the daughter read it fast, and the friend recorded it, was that truly “sharing the work” by the daughter if the recording was without her knowledge?
The amount of copying and the exactness of the copying, to trigger the program and the accusation, is substantial. I still don’t see how that was possible unless either the daughter read slowly and repeated sentences, or the friend recorded it.
It isn’t really up to anyone to see if it’s possible. If both girls stated that my daughter read from her paper then that is what happened. And again, nobody is arguing the paper wasn’t copied or that it has to be proven. I doubt my child read so fast someone couldn’t keep up. But I also didn’t ask her to explain to me how fast she read because it’s pointless when what is fast for one person may be slow for another. Point is she read it. The issue is does that constitute “lending out her work”. That’s where we are seeing if we have a case. And were the kids educated on the proper use of the word “lending”. The policy does not elaborate on the word and as an adult if I lend something out I am giving them a physical copy of something. The school is saying that their meaning (even though it’s not written in their policies) means verbal lending as well. .
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Well the speed at which she read it, whether she repeated sentences, whether her friend was typing or taking notes as she read it, whether she knew it was being recorded all go to intent and may well make the difference between a warning and the punishment prescribed. The lawyer will ask her all of these questions (I am a lawyer) as will others if it comes to a hearing. In a case which involves intent as an element the facts are critical.
It is actually up to someone to figure out what happened beyond both girls said she read it. I would set up a meeting with the lawyer including your daughter to see how to best proceed.
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Thanks but you aren’t answering the question I am asking so let me ask again. Regardless of how it was read (speed, dictation etc…). Is reading considered “lending” out your work.
I have only read the first few posts in this thread. Based on the statements made by OP, it seems clear to me that both students violated school policy which prohibits cheating.
While it seems that the OP’s daughter did not intend to aid another in unethical conduct (plagiarism), her actions clearly did so.
P.S. This situation seems similar to speaking to a reporter “off the record”. Hint: Nothing said to a reporter is ever off the record.