Need LAC suggestions for future "Nate Silver" kid... :-)

A comment on competitiveness in college. People are using the term in various ways. #1) Grade grubbing as opposed to a learning focus. #2) One-up-man-ship, trying to conquer or dominate others; dog-eat-dog fighting for scarce goods (e.g., grades determined by a curve). #3) Demanding curriculum, with strong core requirements. Probably other notions are embedded in what people are writing. But they are sometimes equating the three that I’ve mentioned and that’s just not right.

One reason my son LIKED Chicago is that the curriculum was demanding (#3), but the students were not one-upping one another, fighting for scarce A’s (4-points). At least not in the courses he took. He did not plan on going to med school. He gave some consideration to law school and took the LSAT one time without prep and got a very high score, but he really wasn’t interested in a legal career. He did not try to get the highest possible grades. He graduated “with honors” at Chicago, but this didn’t require a 3.8 GPA – rather a 3.25 (if I recall correctly). His lack of focus on grades (as opposed to learning) was true since he was in high school and earlier. His test scores were extremely high but he didn’t prep for the tests at all. His GPA wasn’t at the top of his class because he had other priorities: 1) high school policy debate, 2) high school journalism (editor of opinion page), and 3) his hobbies. All of those were more important to him than grades. And tests, as I suggested, were something of an after-thought. He never prepped for them but performed extremely well on them.

Reed discourages grade grubbing, and in fact its grading system discourages students from this. When I attended, students didn’t know their course grades or their GPA’s. I never saw a transcript until AFTER I GRADUATED. When I received a graded paper, the professor wrote substantive comments on it, perhaps with a summary “Very good.” And students often met in “paper conferences” with the instructor to discuss the papers. But no letter or number grade appeared on the cover page. The students are very interested in ideas, and discussing and arguing and advocating, both in their courses and outside. They are not competitive with one another for scarce goods, but they may argue with others. We never spoke about grades because evaluations on papers and other assignments (except in subjects such as math and language and sciences) were based on overall performance, and not some kind of point-counting system.

There are many courses in which the focus is not on determining and rewarding or punishing “right” and “wrong” answers, but rather on addressing differing interpretations and expressing differing ideas. Reedies work hard, but it’s not a struggle of each against all for scarce A’s and B’s. In the end, for students who do want to go to graduate school, the MCAT’s and LSAT’s and GRE’s do matter a lot, perhaps more than grades. But someone such as the OP’s son who has stellar SAT’s is going to get stellar LSAT and GRE scores. He could take those exams today with no prep and probably get very high scores. My son took the LSAT once without any prep, just to learn about the exam. He got 169. If he had repeated it, he’d probably have scored in the low 170’s. But he wouldn’t have prepped for it! That was against his nature. And he decided against going to graduate or professional school.

After this long diatribe, let me agree that it’s important to find a college where the atmosphere is good. But one shouldn’t conflate the different notions of competitiveness. Every campus has a variety of students with different backgrounds, personalities, work styles, and life goals. Try to learn about the informal life of the college and the college community. A very smart student will want to have other smart kids to cooperate with, talk to, exchange ideas with, and so on. The End.

I’d suggest your son dig a little deeper into Williams. The preppy and jocky descriptor is somewhat outdated. Williams kids are active but not necessarily involved in team sports. The mountain village environment encourages outdoorsy activities. Clean air, starry nights and lots of snow.

Politically more middle road than its peers. A vibrant arts community especially music, theater and visual arts.

Williams has a superb math program, along with Mudd, one of the best among academically rigorous LACs. Statistics is a full major and political science is also quite strong. The political economy major may also be of interest. Double majoris are common.

It also has an excellent music program with several ensembles and multiple performance opportunities even for non-majors. Beautiful pianos.

The Berkshires have a well established gay community, but with as with all LACs, dating opportunities may be limited. Visit and see how it feels.

I don’t agree that Carleton & Swarthmore belong in the same category of intensity. Carleton is not THAT intense. A lot of kids who get into UChicago & Carleton pick Carleton because it is more laid back than UChicago, too. I have a kid who got into all 3 (and her high school sends kids to Carleton every year). He should take a harder look at Carleton, IMHO.

One more item from your sons wishlist: Williams also has a unique program of Oxford style tutorials.

Note, however, that in the Princeton Review Hamilton does not appear in any of the three lists/categories that might be related to this: “Lots of Beer,” “Lots of Hard Liquor” and “Party Schools.”

I don’t think of Hamilton as having any more of an alcohol problem than the other schools the OP’s kid has preferred. You can’t find many colleges today without something of a party scene.

However, smaller and more rural schools in the northeast and north central (midwest) regions may have more of an alcohol scene, though it can obviously vary by college. Investigate carefully if this is a concern.

https://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/media/finalpanel1.pdf page 23-25 mentions college characteristics.

Sure. But Kenyon, Haverford, St Olaf, Colby – the kid’s list already has a lot of schools where a party is not hard to find.

At Haverford, you can find parties for sure if you want them. If you don’t like to drink but still like to the social scene, you can attend the parties and weekend concerts and no one is going to care if you choose not to drink. If you don’t want that scene at all, you’ll have other options available to you on campus and a whole big city to explore as well. One very active and very popular group on campus that arranges plenty of non-drinking activities is Nerd House. Non-nerds are welcome, too. :slight_smile: It’s very much a “live and let live” kind of place and groups/activities tend to be very open and welcoming.

https://www.haverford.edu/organization/nerd-house

Would be a great choice provided:

One manages to avoid the pre-med contingent which is strong on the campus and due to weedout pressures based on a relative and a post-college classmate who were both natural science majors(Chem and Bio respectively), the heavily competitive vibe from that contingent has a tendency to rub off in other classes if one is unlucky to be in classes where they make up a critical mass.

@agatha1939 - I am exactly like your son, except for the fact that I don’t mind competition, and I chose Yale. It has everything he needs and wants. NICE students. Small classes and seminars. A beautiful campus. A great music program. If he hates the idea of New Haven, then Princeton would be an ideal alternative. He is a stellar student and a highly desirable applicant and should apply to top schools if he can write good essays. I think that LACs are too small and have limited academic, musical and social opportunities for him. If he can’r see himself at Yale or Princeton, then Pomona or Swarthmore/Haverford with its consortium of schools would be a good alternative. Northwestern has a great math/statistics program but is quite sports-oriented and socially mainstream. U Chicago or Princeton would have been my choices after Yale and then Brown, which might be the perfect place for him since College Hill is beautiful and feels very safe. It is difficult to find a small, rural, school that will challenge him intellectually and where he will also find a welcoming LGBTQ community. Needing a small school is understandable, but it should be part of a consortium of schools to give him the intellectual and social opportunities he also requires.

^How long has Princeton had nice students?

Knowing how one feels about/responds to competition is a key personal insight. I went to a highly competitive school, and, after touring schools with my kid, who chose an LAC, I wish I had done the same. 20-20 hindsight. Depends on the kid. One is not inherently better than the other.

Perhaps the University of Chicago has changed a lot since my kids went there. (The last graduated six years ago, but returned for a graduate degree and now works on campus.) The college they went to was not at all competitive in the first two senses that @mackinaw analyzed. It was certainly “intense” in academic demands, but almost universally students approached that intensity in a collaborative, noncompetitive manner. Grade-grubbing was a complete social no-no, and even admitting that you declined to take a course of interest to you because the professor had a reputation as a hard grader was something that could bring social opprobrium. If students were competitive, they were competitive to be right, not competitive to be first.

I think Reed is very similar. I thought Swarthmore was, too, but there’s enough pre-professionalism there to maybe shade more into grade-competition.

A nephew of mine had a dream college career at Hamilton. The college could not have been more supportive of his unconventional intellectual interests. He wound up with a roll-your-own major of “Philosophy of Agriculture.” The college not only contracted with a professor from the SUNY system to supervise him – since no one on the faculty felt fully competent to do so – it funded his summer research, and when he set up a CSA program in Clinton the college signed on as the anchor customer. That said, my strong impression from him and others is that notwithstanding the lack of fraternities and sororities there are strong elements of drinking, partying, preppiness, and jockiness in the student body.

Except for the fact that it’s not in a small town, Macalester sounds like a really good fit. Mac is known to be one of the most LGBT-friendly colleges in the country. There is no Greek life. My daughter specifically sought out liberal arts colleges in the Midwest rather than on the East Coast where we live because she also wanted to go somewhere where the kids were really smart in a way that meant they loved to learn and discuss and question, not that they loved to outperform their classmates. That’s the exact impression we got from Macalester (and also from Grinnell and Kenyon, but D preferred Mac’s location). During her overnight visit she found that all the students she met were friendly and enthusiastic, and eager to encourage her to attend.

A word about location. The Mac campus is self-contained and not what one thinks of as an urban campus (like NYU or Boston University). There are lots of trees and grass! However, one can step off the campus and head right to coffee shops, ethnic restaurants, used record stores etc. Downtown is a short ride away on public transportation. I think that isolated locations might make it more of a challenge for a non-partying kind of kid to find things to do, especially if the school doesn’t make an effort to have varied alcohol free programming for students who don’t drink. That was the impression my daughter got from Grinnell, even though it seemed like a wonderful school in almost every other way. Small towns have their charm, but as another poster noted above, an LGBT-friendly school in a small town might mean the surrounding area is not so LGBT-friendly. In addition, the less isolated location means a lot when it comes to internships and other opportunities.

I hope this was helpful! Your son’s qualifications should make him a pretty good candidate for almost anywhere he wants to apply. Best of luck!

Northwestern has been mentioned several times. It’s a great research university, perpetually in the running as a back bench ivy. But, I wouldn’t describe its campus as bucolic; it’s full of big, boxy, rather mediocre mid-century modern buildings. It’s usually at this point that the conversation turns to other non-ivy alternatives such as WUSTL, Emory (too hot), Rice (ditto), and Duke (too fratty.) That leaves WUSTL.

@agatha1939 Truly am not trying to be a “homer” here but after reading your criteria and responses I’m going to suggest a different direction - Virginia Tech. No it’s not a small LAC but it has so many of the other characteristics you’ve highlighted as important. These are generally the “nice kids” he’s looking for, just in a large school. Strong academics, especially in STEM, and the environment is surprisingly supportive not competitive. LGBTQ will not be an issue there and has a good amount of support… The big thing is kids absolutely love this school. They’re happy and active on campus. Had a hard time believing all the good I’d heard about the school but there’s something there that you can’t exactly pinpoint that makes it a place that students love and are very proud of. Gorgeous campus, lots of hills and trees. Blacksburg is a nice college town with a good relationship to the school, not adversarial. In state for you, should make it less expensive and easy to get home. It is larger than the smaller LAC’s he’s considering but may be worth looking at anyway. College football is big there in the fall, but you can escape it. Great variety of intramural sports available. Greek life is there but doesn’t run the school at all (think participation is 15% or so). Frats are more numerous but small - most <50 members. Sororities more popular and bigger. I think he might want to at least consider the benefits of a larger school…

Anyhow, just wanted to throw in something totally different for you to think about.

Best of luck in your search!

He sounds like he should have Haverford at the top of his list for sure. They are “nice” and open there. No competition between students at all. My son was looking for the same kind of school. Swarthmore is a little more competitive.

Other schools my son was considering that might fit your criteria: Brown (his first choice), URochester, Vassar, CMU. He didn’t get a good vibe from Amherst. Loved Bowdoin but thought it was too far, too cold, too small. Oberlin was too “crunchy”.

Good morning everyone! I can’t thank you enough for all messages and comments, I feel so much better educated about different options for my son, I really appreciate all suggestions.

l spent some time with him last night discussing his wishes and showed him this thread and other ones discussing kids with similar stats, etc. He said he is confused now which is GOOD, meaning he is not so SURE he wants a small LAC in a rural location only and is OK with visiting bigger schools as well. He was really impressed with the NW program (thanks @monydad !) and is starting to see that maybe universities can offer him something more specific than a small LAC. He definitely needs to visit all kinds of schools before making a decision, but he is way more open than before.

My plan now is to choose an area where we could have a little trip and visit some good LACs and universities so he can compare them, talk to students, maybe even sit in a class if possible and talk to professors. Not sure if we can do this without an appointment, but we’ll see. He did write to NW last night asking more questions about that program, and I also gave him some “homework” to research a few big universities and find out if they can offer him something similar (UChicago, UMichigan, URochester, etc).

Just answering a few comments:

@mackinaw he really doesn’t want to consider Reed, like I mentioned before it does have a bad reputation of “too much party/drink/drugs” (it may be unfair) among many kids in his school and he is not interested at all. He also likes and wants lots of snow, so the location is not his favourite too. UChicago is MY favourite and I will do my best to convince him to apply there, I think if he sees that even though the school is hard/intense, kids are NOT competitive/mean, it has a chance (I’m pushing the “Nate-Silver-went-there” narrative hard!). I have never visited it so I’m curious too, specially about how the campus feel (urban like Columbia or more leafy-campus like). But thanks a lot for all your comments!

@momrath I love seminar-like classes and I’m happy to hear Williams offers them. We may visit it, although I hear the town is tiny and son is not too interested. But it’s in my maybe list, thanks!

@zoebrittany I don’t think HYP will happen, and specially Yale which my son visited last year with his cousin… and hated it. In fact he didn’t like any of them (said kids were either stressed or snobby/pretentious and just not nice) and during all these discussions we had, they were never mentioned. I’m fine with that though, so unless he shows some interest I won’t push them. He does writes good essays and won a few prizes for his writing so hopefully that will help him if he changes his mind later, but thank you!

@JustGraduate I haven’t thought about Virginia Tech but will check now. I think he should apply to a few in-state to increase his chances of being admitted, I hear so many cases of kids being shut out that I worry about applying only OOS. But he does not like Virginia and did mention he would like to go north, either NE or upper Midwest. I will be moving away in a few years and we don’t have family here, so that’s not a consideration. But I will mention Virginia Tech to him so he can research more (he visited UVA already and hated it, in fact think it was that visit that pushed him so much in the opposite direction of focusing on LACs only).

Thank you everyone, I will keep researching all schools mentioned here, universities and LACs and hopefully we will be able to create a list of schools with a balance of great academics and nice kids.

Good call on Reed. I think it’s a great school for the right kid, but it’s a very intense, specific vibe, and if that turns your kid off, there’s really no getting around it. Personally, although I saw its charms, I couldn’t wait to get out of there when we visited. I think you either love it or hate it, and it’s not speaking to your kid, no point in forcing it.