The issue with schools with unusually high quantity of workload AND academic rigor like UChicago, Reed, Caltech, Cornell, Swat, etc isn’t necessarily grade grubbing or cutthroat competitive.
It’s more rather that even among the elite/respectable colleges, you will be subjected to unusually higher academic expectations and a higher quantity/more intensive academic workload even for colleges in that group.
An older cousin who started out at a Federal Service Academy as an EE major found this to be the case when he transferred and finished at Caltech despite the fact the latter didn’t require him to be awake at 6 am every morning and subject him to a 24/7 military environment. Even though he excelled at Caltech, he found he had to work much harder and be more on top of his academic game than at his former institution.
The workload at Cornell is no higher than at Columbia. told to me by somebody who took courses at both. Recently. Those are probably not much different than a lot of the other top schools. CC poster Bernie has reported that its science tests are not among the higher levels for the courses he reviewed.
The volume of assignments and tests there are not abnormal.
I don’t have the time right now to finish reading the entire thread, but three schools that struck me as strong candidates for your son are U Chicago, Dartmouth, and Carleton.
Really, I do not think that the U of C is “competitive” in nature. It does attract people who love what they study for its own sake, not grade grubbers or the type who would compare their scores and grades! Urban? Well, yes, technically it is urban, but we are talking large quads full of trees, and tree-lined streets with very, very few buildings over 3 stories. And there is the lakefront. We are not talking the concrete canyons of Columbia! It is true that U of C students are less likely to have access to skiing and things like that, although one can skate on the midway if the weather is right.
Dartmouth hits every criteria except for Greek life. But several things: Greek life at D is NOT like Greek life elsewhere. It is very open, and comparatively relaxed. There are also coed houses, and unaffiliated students. Believe me, MANY people who pledge a Greek organization at D are people who would never, ever do so elsewhere. Dartmouth students are very bright, but they are no competitive. I’ve known D students since I was a student, in the 70s, and they are not the type that are impressed with themselves. It is uncool to be that type of person at D.
Lastly, Carleton. I find it difficult to imagine where your S got his impression of Carleton. Quirky, intellectual, broad-minded, yes. Competitive and stressed, no.
I really think he needs to visit these places with an open mind!
Colby over Bowdon? Really, he just doesn’t know the schools. Visit!!
It seemed hard to differentiate online, but after touring Bates, Bowdoin and Colby, my daughter was very clear about where she wanted to be and it didn’t match with what we though ahead of time or line up with the rankings. The visits were crucial for her. She is now at the end of her first year and is thriving. i really believe this is due to her focusing on how she felt being on each campus.
With respect to tough to get into schools getting tougher, my son said a funny thing. He was at Vanderbilt and a member of the rugby club. He mentioned that during his time there (graduated last year), it was getting harder and harder to recruit former high school football players because thery weren’t being admitted or choosing to attend anymore! Yes, I realize the dumb football player is a stereotype, but it seemed to the team like something had changed in the demographics.
OP you asked if the cost of attendance numbers are real. Yes, for full pay the tuition, room and board component is real. Sometimes there is an overestimate for books, etc. but mostly it is real. Your son stands a good chance of getting a merit award at schools where he is above average in grades and stats.
@5050mom1618 Agreed on the Maine schools. We only visited two out of the three, but the differences were far more evident on campus than they were from online resources. That’s true of a lot of schools, of course, but that particular cluster tends to get lumped together.
I agree with @5050mom1618. Many students would be happy at any of those 3 Maine schools. Others may find one feels especially right. Or wrong. For a gay student in particular this could be the case. I would say is that is you haven’t been on these 3 campuses in the last 3-5 years or so, your views may be off. Mine certainly were. DS felt he’d be very happy at 2 of them. The other, not so much. Not sure what he was picking up on, but it was clear to him.
If I was picking a Maine school it would be Bowdoin because of its proximity to some of the most beautiful beaches in America (Reid State Park and Popham)
My son had friends at Bowdoin and Colby. Bowdoin has great food. Bowdoin seemed to get stronger students than Colby. Not sure if either of these two statements is true four years later.
I have talked a little more with S about his wishes for school. He’s still worried about attending big universities where classes are given by TAs only and still says he prefers small colleges where he believes the quality of instruction is better. At the same time he’s very interested in the variety of majors offered by bigger schools that don’t really exist in LACs. He also agrees that in a bigger school he will find his “tribe” no matter what since there are so many different groups, but at the same time he believes LAC kids are more intellectual and nice… I don’t know why he thinks that, but it’s an strong feeling he has for now.
Even though he’s very strong in math and likes to study it, it became more clear for me that he is REALLY interested in social sciences and sees math/stats as a tool to understand politics/sociology/economy/psychology, not really as a primary interest. I know this may change but for example, for now he says he is not interested in math/stats grad school at all but talks about working with quantitative social sciences, maybe even a PhD. He found a few schools that offer this kind of interdisciplinary major and wrote to all of them asking more information, but they are all schools that he is not interested attending (Dartmouth, CMU, NW). He is now very confused.
It seems we still have a lot of work to do before creating a list of colleges he can apply. He has visited a few universities with his older cousin last year (HYP and Penn) and didn’t like them, but they were Ivies which I know he’s not a big fan of, so that may have influenced his impressions. I think he has to visit a few LACs now and talk to professors and students to see if he could get the same kind of academics (quantitative social sciences) that he could have in a bigger university. Chicago is always an option not being a big school, but it’s a reach of course and we’ll have to find other similar ones as matches and safeties. And with lots of trees… and with cold/snow weather… and not in a conservative area… ugh!
Most use of TAs at universities is in supplemental discussion or lab sections associated with a larger lecture given by a faculty member.
Seems like some of his wants can be difficult to find together. For example, if he prefers rural areas, he may have to realize that these are often more conservative areas.
I don’t know of any school where TAs teach all the courses. My daughter is at a (small) flagship, and does have a few classes where there are over 100 students in a lecture, but the lectures are taught by a professor and then the discussion classes (25-30 students) are lead by a TA. The professor still has office hours, but so does the TA. The majority of her courses - history, art, French, English - have fewer than 30 students in them, her French classes fewer than 20.
Smaller classes are not always better. If you have 10 students discussing a book, is that better than having 15? What if those 10 students all have a similar background (prep school, white, 19 years old)? What if student #13 is black, from a big urban school in Dallas, 21 years old? Couldn’t #13 add a little to the discussion?
I visited a cousin at Williams many years ago and met her suitemates. Two from Mass, one from RI, one from CT and two from NY. All white. All majoring in some type of history or English. All 18 years old. Three of them named Kate. They really thought they were a diverse group.
I understand your son’s preference for LACs as I’m biased that way myself for various reasons. I think he can get what he’s looking for at LACs by combining quantitative coursework with coursework in the social sciences he is interested in. It’s a smart move as much is headed in this direction. One thing about LACs is it is much easier to find professors willing to work with you to develop your interests if you have a little self-iniative. He could do a double major, major/minor, or even do a self-designed major. Both my kids (one graduated, one still in school) took paths that incorporated their own passions and interests into their majors, creating an academic path that was tailored to what they wanted to a large extent.
BTW, LACs aren’t all white, preppy kids.
My kids have never had more than 30 in a class. I think there are real benefits to that. One can learn from peer discussion in addition to professors. It also means students need to come to class more prepared and engaged. Professor/student relationships are formed.
@twoinanddone Oh, you don’t have to tell me this, I completely agree with you… I mean, to be fair I didn’t know about the TAs (I also thought they were teaching the majority of classes in bigger universities, so good too know that’s not the case), but everything else? Yes, bigger schools are much better IMO (and specially for him). Now I just have to show/convince him that!
Yes, that’s his reasoning too… and that may be right, I just am not very familiar with LACs so it’s something I want to investigate more. But it may be possible (and who knows, even easier) to have a interdisciplinary major approved in a LAC instead of a bigger school. We definitely need to visit some of them and talk to professors and adm.
Almost all of the NESCAC schools, which are located in the liberal, leafy NE, would provide him what he is looking for. Has he looked at Hamilton or Middlebury?
