Need some advice on visits, etc....

Parents Forum
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<p>I’m happy to have found CC, because I’m requesting information from experienced parents (or students) in the college search process. My son is a junior. We’re originally from KY, but he has attended a Dept. of Defense school here in Germany for the past five years. Consequently, college visits during the school year are difficult. We plan on flying to the states during our spring break week in April and visiting schools in KY, IN, and OH. His mother and I think the best match for him will be a smaller LAC. Right now, he seems to agree, so we’re considering visits to Denison, Kenyon, Earlham, Hanover, Thomas More, Centre, and Transylvania. We may try to include Xavier in Cincinnati, U. of Kentucky (so he can see a large state university), and he’s expressed a tentative interest in Notre Dame and Oberlin. Right now, he has a weighted GPA of 4.0 and he will have completed 5 AP classes and tests by the end of this year. He took the SAT last year and scored a 1420, and his composite on the ACT this year was 32. He doesn’t have a whole bunch of extracurriculars, but he’s in the NHS, and he’s president of the MUN this year. </p>

<p>My questions: </p>

<p>What are his chances on getting into the schools we’re considering? I think Notre Dame, Kenyon, and Oberlin will be reach schools for him. </p>

<p>Any other schools we should consider? We’re also willing to consider other schools, but we can’t visit them all during one week. We’ll probably return in the summer. </p>

<p>Do you have any comments (positive or negative) on the schools I’ve mentioned? </p>

<p>For visits, what is the minimum amount of time you suggest we spend on a campus? For example, I’m thinking that we might visit Denison in the morning, and Kenyon in the afternoon with a possible overnight at the second school. Is this feasible? </p>

<p>That’s definitely enough for now. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.</p>

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<p>Kenyon and Denison are very rural and isolated, with Kenyon being much more rural and isolated than Denison. They are both known for their strengths in the humanities, especially English and creative writing. Kenyon's science program has really developed lately and is becoming much more stronger. Both are known for being big on alcoholic drinks, especially Denison. Oberlin is much stronger than both schools in the sciences, and they have a music conservatory program.</p>

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<p>I think that it would be wiser to just see one school a day, especially since you probably won't be able to visit the colleges again. There are many useful tips for visits on the thread: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=33248&highlight=obvious+visit+suggestions%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=33248&highlight=obvious+visit+suggestions&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>Based on what I know about the schools, Oberlin and Notre Dame are very different. Oberlin is very artsy and quirky, and Notre Dame is more athletic. It might actually be good to see both so that you will know about both ends of the spectrum.</p>

<p>As for other colleges to visit, are you only looking in the midwest?</p>

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<p>Yes, touring that many colleges in a short period is possible. The trick is being able to remember what was unique about each college. Make sure you have enough time between visits to "debrief" and put into writing your thoughts on each campus. Take lots of pictures!</p>

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<p>You have a good variety of colleges, so that after your visits you'll be able to categorize other schools with those visited in mind. Youn might want to take a peek at a state school--which one is affiliated with DOD these days; it was UMD in my day, Eastern MIchigan, I heard some years ago? Do you have a state school?</p>

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<p>Minimum amt of time is as you have hinted, doddsdad, ie one in AM and one in PM. This way you can do tour/info session at each. That is definitely a minimum, tho. We did many schools that way and do not have too many regrets. The thread yemaya has linked shows how to be much more thorough in your visits, but that may not be feasible in every case. A lot depends on driving time between schools, also. With limited time at a school, I personally would want to do either info session or tour or both (there can be a lot of overlap). If you do one or the other, you can "poke around", chat with students etc. for a while. On a short visit, you might be too "lost" to go totally on your own, tho.</p>

<p>Also, different S/Ds have different "tolerances" for the visit process. Cf the book Accept My Kid, please with the chapter entitled "What a great day for a college visit, too bad we have to bring the kid." So, know that you will have accomplished something valuable even if you cannot do the "optimum" visit. Were it me, I would want to see a good number of schools in the half day mode vs. very few in a day or two each. Remember, your S can always do thorough visits of a much smaller number of schools he is accepted to before a final choice.</p>

<p>Be aware that the logistical planning for your visits can be quite involved. I had success using the college board website as my "home base" as you can form and save a list of your schools, click through to their websites, make note of times of their tours/info sessions and interview if you have scheduled one. I even used the notes area to track hotel/car reservations, etc. </p>

<p>Hope this helps and keep us posted. Others will have good info re your S' prospects for the schools you have listed. My own impression is that he is v. strong for many schools, perhaps most or all that you have mentioned.</p>

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<p>Several thoughts - although most of the schools on your list are LACs, several of them have radically different "feels." Oberlin and Earlham, for example, have very liberal student bodies and academics --- Denison, Kenyon and Centre are very preppy and moderate, even conservative in terms of the student bodies. Notre Dame is too. </p>

<p>You may want to talk with your son about how he sees himself - would he be happiest at a school where there are frats and more conservative students or at a school where there's a more liberal and "do your own thing" kind of atmosphere. That could help you narrow down your list of schools to visit. </p>

<p>If he's not sure of the answer, you might think about choosing one or two of each type and visiting those first and then adjust your visit plans from there (you can often call a school and arrange a tour pretty quickly). For example, start off with Denison and Oberlin. If he likes Denison, maybe visit Wittenberg, Kenyon, Centre. If he likes Oberlin, add a stop at Earlham. </p>

<p>You might want to check out Case Western Reserve instead of Xavier - a closer match to his stats and an urban feel. And, Notre Dame would be worth a visit if he is at all interested (I can't imagine any one who would visit Notre Dame AND Oberlin and like BOTH!)</p>

<p>I think Oberlin and Kenyon would be solid matches, not reaches, for your son. Notre Dame is a bit of a reach, but a realistic one. They favor community service and leadership there so that could put him over the top. All of the other schools on your list can probably safely be considered safeties for your son.</p>

<p>Finally, I've found that my daughter quickly burns out after a few days of college tours. They start to become very repetitive. Sometimes, just driving through a campus can be more than enough for her without having to stop for the formal tour and presentation. We have done two tours in a day but only when the schools are very close together --- and in almost every case, the afternoon tour was a bust simply because she was tired and not in the mood to see another dorm room, another library, another classroom building. Don't be surprised if you show up at some schools and your son takes one look through the car window and says "keep driving." It's pretty normal and typical for kids.</p>

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<p>What does he want to study?</p>

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<p>I can only speak about Oberlin. That was our son's first choice based on his campus visit and he was accepted. Depending on how GPA's are recalculated(he had a 97 wgpa but had a few courses with averages of less than 90) he had a lower gpa than your son but a slightly higher(1450) SAT. He got accepted so I suspect that your son will have a very good shot too. The finaid offers made him ultimately choose RPI over Oberlin.</p>

<p>Another poster characterized Oberlin as quirky and that is as good a description as any. It felt to me as if we were entering a 70's time warp. Its very liberal but fantastically academically too. There produce far more PhD's than any other LAC.</p>

<p>But Obelin is not for everyone. My son loved the visit, I was amused and my wife literally cried thinking about him attending. They have lots of co-ops and require students to complete two or three inter-term projects.</p>

<p>My advice it that Oberlin is a must visit college to see first hand if it might be suitable.</p>

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<p>Doddsdad, We also live overseas and can appreciate the difficulty of applying from afar. It looks like you’ve done a fair amount of research and are organized. 1420 and 4.0 GPA are excellent credentials. That plus his international experience and MUN involvement make him eligible for just about any college in America. In other words, his qualifications may not get him into a selective college, but they won’t keep him out either.</p>

<p>I’m a great proponent of LACs and I’m familiar with several on your list. I think that his chances of getting into Notre Dame, Kenyon, and Oberlin are very good, but at the same time I applaud your conservative approach as it’s imperative to have a good safety or two.</p>

<p>Are you locked into your geographic area? If not, then I would recommend adding a few of the more selective LACs like Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Pomona, Carlton, Grinnell, Bowdoin (there are many others.)</p>

<p>I think college visits work best with a less is more philosophy. That is, try to limit your list so that you can concentrate on one college a day. You can spend the night on or near campus, then in the morning go to the information session, tour, and if possible interview. Have lunch in the dining hall. Spend a few hours walking around campus. Visit the shopping area or wherever students hang out. See the sports/arts/or any special interest facilities that weren’t on the tour. Then head out for the next stop in the late afternoon. Especially for these remote colleges, seeing what the campus is like after sundown is an important element in getting a feel for the place. (PS The inn on the Kenyon campus is a terrific place to stay.)</p>

<p>Trying to analyze by “character” or whatever you want to call it will help your son to narrow in on what he wants, e.g. liberal/conservative, rural/urban/suburban, fraternities/none. There’s quite a lot of overlap so you don’t want to go overboard on stereotypes before visiting but I agree that you could help him focus a little more on what atmosphere he’s looking for.</p>

<p>In all during spring break and in the summer you should aim to see 10 minimum 20 maximum schools. If you do your homework, this should be sufficient. It’s not a perfect science; there will be some schools that you don’t get to. And there will be some surprises -- for my son his top three fell off the list after visiting and two more last minute additions rose to the top.</p>

<p>We also made use of Collegiate Choice videos both to pre-edit before traveling and to reinforce our decision upon return to our home. In our case we had to make all of our visits in one fell swoop and there was no chance of re-visiting after the acceptances came in so we did a lot of pre-planning. My son started with a long list of about 30, we visited 14 (in a three week period with ample time off for good behavior) and planned to apply to 8. As it turned out he was accepted to his ED choice and the whole process came to a happy conclusion. It sounds like you’re off to a good start.</p>

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<p>Here's my college visit tip. Take the Fiske Guide and Princeton Review College Guide with you in the car. Read the descriptions of a school out loud as you are driving to it. Have some fun, "I wonder what THAT really means?" It's a great trigger for general conversation about the college experience. </p>

<p>For example, as we drove up to Washington and Lee, we read, "The last bastion of the southern gentleman, who can hold his liquor and is damn proud of it!". It all came flashing back to me, a high school classmate who had gone to W&L. Which, in turn, triggered a conversation about frats and social scenes on campus. I think the more you can make college life "real" the better chance the kid has of forming some likes and dislikes and the more sense the campus visits might make.</p>

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<p>Kenyon is a match. Notre Dame and Oberlin are, as Carolyn posted, realistic reaches.</p>

<p>If you are pretty sure that a LAC is the best bet, I'd make Denison, Kenyon, Oberlin and Earlham your core visits. You have a nice range of selectivity, size (1100-3000) and campus cultures there, plus some of the very best programs in the nation in English, Music, Classics, Psychology and Japanese. An excellent safety in Ohio would be College of Wooster. Wooster, Denison and Kenyon could be nicely covered in a 2-day block.</p>

<p>Outside of the geographical area you indicate there are dozens of great schools to visit, but you have some excellent options in that area. And if you want to look into some larger schools, Miami of Ohio is nicely routable with Earlham and is a good choice for a business undergrad. Ohio U has some very strong programs too.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone for your excellent suggestions and advice! I’ve already received more replies than I could have hoped for, and I’m only beginning to impose on your good graces! (I need one of those winking smiley faces here). We will consider the other colleges mentioned, and use the suggested research tools. I’m going to print out all of your replies (like I have from other threads). I’ll try to answer the questions and provide a little more info to clarify….</p>

<p>As a starting point, we thought we would consider schools within a 4 hour drive of our family’s home base in KY. He has grandparents and aunts, uncles and cousins there. This was at the suggestion of one of our school’s counselors who said many DoDDS students benefit from relatives within a reasonable distance for potential emergencies, and a place to go for Thanksgiving and Christmas. We’re not necessarily limiting ourselves to that area; in fact, he has speculated that he might like to school in New England even though he’s never been there. I’ve already found out that there is no problem in finding and identifying great schools to consider, the dilemma is choosing those for serious consideration. Also, since we can’t visit the U.S. without visiting the grandparents, we’re trying to visit a variety of schools nearby with the time we have. We should be able to return in the summer for more college visits, either more focused and/or a broader area. I know that’s contradictory, but we’re still at that stage. </p>

<p>S is interested in history, English, international relations, and possibly in teaching at the secondary or college level. His involvement in MUN has been exciting and beneficial. For example, he’s attended two conferences in Russia, and three conferences in The Hague in The Netherlands. This has led to an interest in international relations, but ironically, he’s already frustrated with how frustrating it is to work within the UN model, and he believes it is probably an “ineffective organization.” </p>

<p>I’m happy the schools we’re considering range from conservative to liberal. S tends to be fairly liberal, but he has some conservative viewpoints, and he loves to debate. (He doesn’t listen too well but we’re working on that.) We’ll have to find out where he’s comfortable. I think that’s our primary reason for visiting campuses while the students are there. He’s definitely not interested in joining a fraternity, although I’ve tried to persuade him not to completely reject the idea until he learns more about it. </p>

<p>I hope this isn’t imposing (or more appropriate to a different thread) but I have another question.</p>

<p>S plans on taking the new SAT since he’s not graduating until next year. However, he’s also considering taking the ACT again because he thinks he can do better in some of the areas. He’s also already considering taking the new SAT a second time depending on how he does. Did most of your S and D retake the tests? Did they improve their scores even if they were fairly strong the first time? I know there are other threads on how to prep for the tests and we’ll research those. I guess I want to know if it’s worth the effort and whether he has anything to lose by trying.</p>

<p>I have some financial aid questions, but I assume I should ask those on that forum. </p>

<p>Thanks again to all of your. I really appreciate this online community!</p>

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<p>Jamimom,
I forgot to respond to your question. U of MD still has a strong overseas presence here in Europe, but with online courses, there are a variety of schools offering degrees to Americans living overseas. U of MD will soon close it's campus in Mannheim, but they will continue to offer courses in "classrooms" taught by "local hire" instructors. They also maintain a relationship with DoDDS.<br>
Thanks</p>

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<p>Great tip, interesteddad. We did siimilar and it is a good way of hearing your S/D's thoughts and/or getting them thinking. Especially helpful with S like mine who is a "reluctant" talker.</p>

<p>doddsdad - for more than you ever wanted to know about smilies etc. (and some fun) see [thread]29537[/thread], starting with #11 and "peaking" around #37. You, too, can be :cool:</p>

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<p>I echo Momrath. We found it helpful with our older son to visit campuses, albeit briefly, that we were 99% sure he would not want to attend, because it helped him sharpen his feelings about what was really important. For example, he began his search insisting he only wanted very small schools in a rural/exurban setting. On a trip to southern California, we also made quick trips around UCLA and USC, and he began to realize the size factor was more important than the urban setting. It's also useful get a feeling for how, say, 1000 undergrads on a small urban campus compares with the same number in a rural area, or a 5000 ug campus in a small town. One's preconcieved notions are not always universally borne out. So, if I were driving around Ohio, say, and was going right by U of Ohio or U of Cincinnati anyway, I sure would stop for a quick look around just for the heck of it.</p>

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<p>This is OT, but to add to jmmom's :cool: link, you should visit <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=35198%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=35198&lt;/a>. No black ink, please!</p>

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<p>Doddsdad, when S2 did his college perusals last year, it was more to look at college types rather than honing into specific schools. We were able to get a multi city air ticket that allowed him to go from California back to the east coast, stopping at a number of cities and a variety of colleges. They were picked because we knew someone in those cities or at those colleges so that the only other cost outside of that ticket which was a birthday gift, was the transportation to the college (sometimes someone met and/or took him to the airport and meals, as he stayed with friends, family and kids at the college. So when he was picking schools that had his specific program, he had some reference point to get some idea of the school without having to visit it. In his case he had to visit anyways, as most of his choices had an audition component to them. </p>

<p>Your son has great stats, and I think the choices, other than Notre Dame are matches and safeties for him. I can tell you that the schools in Ohio like Denison, which is on your list, Wooster, Ohio Wesleyan and Wittenberg all have excellent and plentiful merit scholarships for kids with that resume. That may be an important consideration, given the financial aid usually ends up being a disappointment for most of us in the middle/upper middle income range. Case Western is another possibility with lots of merit money. Most of us have enough money to pay for college, had we planned properly and live austere lives, but when it comes time to pay this piper, it turns out we are short, and every check hurts. The second year is the real killer, in my experience. The momentum and graduation gifts, scraping out the savings and getting all that money to squeak by that first year leaves the larder empty for year 2, along with the dreadful realization that there are still 2 MORE of these hunkers to pay even after getting through that second year. So second or third term is where the pain begins for many families. Just one quick tip--spend down those student accounts as they are assessed 35% vs 5.6% of family assets. If youf son has money in a savings account, bonds, etc, you might want to use that money for the visits rather than your own assets, and keep a mentally marked corner of savings for his college in your family accounts. When you are on the border of qualifying for financial aid, that could make a difference.</p>

<p>I was a DOD kid who first came to the US for college. Of course that was about 35 years ago.</p>

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<p>Jamimom, Thank you for your suggestions, especially the financial recommendations. We're exactly in the situation you described. Our current income will probably preclude us from receiving (much/any?) need-based aid, but we certainly haven't saved enough money to pay for his college, not to mention my D who is three years behind him. Merit aid will definitely be a factor in choosing a school. That's one of the reasons we like the LAC's, but maybe more merit aid is available at other schools and I don't know about it. I have to admit we've been fairly narrow in our search so far.</p>

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<p>If you buy a USN&WR Ultimate College guide, it is a book the size of a phone directory, there is a front section that lists the colleges that are the most generous with aid with a column for merit aid. Hone in on those schools, look them up individually in the guide, and they will give you precise breakdowns on the amounts and types of aid they give. And where your kid would fall. For instance, if you see your kid is well in the upper 25% of the SAT scores given and the school gives 30% merit aid with average scholarship of about $10K that gives you some idea what you can expect depending on where your kid's profile falls in the range of students at the school. I think Denison is a good bet, for instance, for generous aid, and Kenyon is not for your son, given current stats. You can then go on the websites of targeted schools and see what specific awards there are and get some idea where the kid falls in their requirements. You can also see loan breakdowns as to how much they expect you to take in loans, and also whether they give 100% of demonstrated aid or not.</p>