Negative reactions regarding child attending BS

Prep School Admissions Prep School Parents
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<p>I referred to outsourcing the grading of classwork for putative “rock star” lecturers to India. </p>

<p>Other developed countries are usually much smaller and more homogeneous than the US. They also sort kids into different tracks at comparatively young ages. That’s fine if the tracks are appropriate. Many parents wouldn’t agree with others’ estimation of the appropriate track for their children. Think how frenzied parental reactions can be to the gifted/non gifted sorting in districts which offer Gifted and Talented programs (ours doesn’t, so I’m relying on the New York Times and Washington Post), then multiply it. </p>

<p>Invent, what would you cut from your local public school’s budget to improve its education? What mandatory program(s) would you be willing to sacrifice? Class size? Music, art, languages, field trips, sports teams? Would you shorten the school year?</p>

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<p>I don’t know about invent, but I’d take a look at at the administrative budget and payroll. That said, some of that is obviously driven by mandates. That should clarify that the system is broken and building alternatives is the best way to free the prisoners.</p>

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<p>

This is already done for you when you don’t get into the college or the major of your choice.</p>

<p>

You don’t need to cut anything. Money is not the problem. We already spend more than most countries. The world is flat. Your berry pickers come from the South. A third of your doctors come from Asia. Import high quality teachers and the quality of education will automatically improve. Best people in the US go to Wall St, best people in Japan go to teach. Without Toyota’s competition, we would still be driving Ford Pintos. Competition will bring the best to the market place.</p>

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<p>As my d is completing her 1st year at bs, new sophomore, I still get the crazy comments.</p>

<p>Most parents already thought I was crazy for removing her from the top public school to homeschool, so they believe this is just more of my craziness. </p>

<p>My two comebacks are the following:</p>

<p>Bs is not for every kid or every family, but surely perfect for my d.</p>

<p>I did the right thing by putting my child’s needs and wants (bs) ahead of my desire to have her at home. Any good parent would do this…right? This typically either shuts insecure parents up or makes good parents ask me about the bs experience. </p>

<p>I honestly have seldom if ever cared about what other parents think of do when I see how parents parent.</p>

<p>Just my 2 cents!</p>

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<p>c’mama, there were some news stories within the past two weeks or so about the differences between public schools in Finland and the USA. With a shorter school year than us, larger classes, and a lower expenditure rate, IIRC, Finland has the best public schools in the world. </p>

<p>What’s the big difference between them and us? Our public school teachers, on average, are drawn from the lower 25th percentile of SAT scorers. Finland’s are from the upper 10th percentile. I think it might really be as simple as that. Teacher quality is almost everything.</p>

<p>As an extension of that, a Ph.D. in history from Harvard will not qualify one to teach in most American public schools, but a B.A. in education from Podunk Teacher’s College will. Of course, the opposite is true in almost every private prep/boarding school - and in Finland, etc. But neither Finland nor our very good prep/boarding schools are dictated to by the AFT and the NEA, are they?</p>

126

<p>I’m with you on that one Mainer–I teach on the college level, where it’s union requirements that ensure that all teachers are properly qualified (with a masters or better in their fields, not in education), so I forget about union’s lack of flexible thinking when it comes to hiring qualifications on the elementary/secondary school level. </p>

<p>I do understand their core concern–when you move outside the elite schools into, for example, parochial and charter schools, you’re far more likely to find a person with an ungraduate major in French teaching English than you are a passionate Ph.D. However, I’m all for more intelligent, logical teacher certification processes.</p>

<p>Have you seen the report from which those statistics come? </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/Social_Sector/our_practices/Education/Knowledge_Highlights/~/media/Reports/SSO/Closing_the_talent_gap.ashx[/url]”>http://www.mckinsey.com/clientservice/Social_Sector/our_practices/Education/Knowledge_Highlights/~/media/Reports/SSO/Closing_the_talent_gap.ashx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>To sum the report up: you get what you pay for. Why do other countries have better qualified teachers? Because they value them in concrete ways–through subsidized education and training, good salaries, and cultural respect.</p>

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<p>Invent: So, if I’ve got you right, importing teachers from India is going to improve the American education system…the way, say, it’s improved phone-based customer service?</p>

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<p>Import them from anywhere good teachers are found including India, Canada, Singapore whatever. We do that with engineers now, why not teachers? They all want to come here anyway.</p>

<p>Yes. the phone-based customer service has improved, may be not in customer’s pont of view, but in company’s point of view of cutting costs. That’s why those call centers haven’t gone away and I don’t think they will, if I understand the economics right. Btw, the call centers are not just in India, they are all over Ireland, Philippines, Brazil etc.</p>

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<p>How do you know if someone’s a good teacher? Because they undercut the competition?</p>

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<p>I don’t know about others. I can spot a bad teacher within 5 min of sitting in a class. That’s the easy part. You have interviews obviously, resume, evalution of teacher’s prior work, recommendations. If a few bad ones slip through, you can always fire them. If you get them from overseas, you see they are not members of any unions. I hope you get the picture. The problem btw is not the ability to find whether someone is a good teacher, it is the difficulty of firing a bad teacher due to the unions.</p>

<p>Here is the economic analysis. Assuming you get someone from Singapore. You pick some one who is a graduate of a top school with excellent teacher credentials and teaching awards. You pay the same salary as an American teacher, say 80K. If a dollar equals 10 singapore dollars, it’s 800K in singapore dollars. So he/she will treat this job with great respect because that is the kind of money in Singapore that is paid to the CEOs. Sounds like a no brainer to me, definitely a win for all the students that are falling through the cracks in the bottomless pit of a current system after pumping $12,000 per student.</p>

131

<p>It is sometimes difficult to spot the good teachers, but the bad ones stick out like a sore thumb. I’d be happy just to get rid of them. </p>

<p>The expression “you get what you pay for” rarely applies to public education. We don’t get anywhere near what we pay for. Example: when my kids were in 7th grade they were required to take a 10 week class in “family and consumer science” that consisted of a series of worksheets (circle the kitchen safety violation), Pillsbury Crescent Roll dough, canned pudding, etc that was taught by a teacher who “earned” more than 90,000 a year for the simple accomplishment of not quitting after she received tenure 28 years ago, (automatic annual salary increases via the “step” salary schedule). Over the course of a year, she taught roughly 80 students. Her salary alone costs the district 1100 dollars per pupil. With benefits it was probably around 1500 per student. If I had to come up with what I would have been willing to pay for my kids to have had that classroom experience, I probably could have found it lying atop my dresser in loose change. It might have been worth 1500 per kid if she had taught them to do laundry. (nod to Parlabane - :wink: )</p>

<p>I have no problem paying teachers competitive salaries, but ONLY if the field itself is competitive; like in Finland, where entry into the training program is highly selective. So…if teacher education programs start requiring higher entry standards - like maybe AT LEAST the national average on standardized measures, I’d be all for paying them more. But I’m not going to get on the more money bandwagon without some kind of changes because so far, throwing money at the teachers hasn’t worked.</p>

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<p>So neato, the idea is to use the model of becoming a doctor to becoming a teacher - limited slots with cut-throat competition to get into those slots. Interesting idea, it would certainly cut back on those who enter teaching while they figure out what they really want to do (a la TFA) and also weed out the lazy early on. As long as they could find those that have great communication skills, genuinely like children and have tons of PATIENCE via the entrance criteria. Yeah, this might work. It’ll take awhile for the current baby boomers in the teaching profession to retire and be removed from the system, but in about 10 years it could make a tremendous difference.</p>

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<p>Remember that every profession has its Wally’s, or Dilbert would never have hit the big time. The bad teachers are galling because we see our tax dollars paying for them–but one way or another, we pay for others’ incompetence in just about every industry (like…hmm…banking?!). </p>

<p>Nonetheless, I’m with you all on making it easier to fire incompetent teachers. The teachers I know don’t support unions because they protect their incompetence; most teachers who stay in the profession are not incompetent, and we’re just as disgusted by the bad ones as you are. </p>

<p>Most teachers support unions to ensure they’ll be paid a living wage. (which, by the way, even in states like mine with a good union, don’t even come close to 80 or 90 thousand dollar a year, though I don’t doubt Neato’s horrifying tale. [Teacher</a> Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com](<a href=“http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state]Teacher”>http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state) ). Get rid of unions and the first thing to be cut will not be incompetent teachers; it’ll be benefits and salary. </p>

<p>In fact, in my career, while every school has had a bad teacher or two (most of whom were eventually forced out), there were far more lousy teachers in the non-unionized states. Teaching is a pretty thankless profession as it is (see the above posts, very few of which recognize the good work that many, many teachers do every day); to teach for peanuts is fool’s work. </p>

<p>I agree wholeheartedly that we should reform schools of education. Make them way more rigorous and graduate far fewer potential teachers. Have a board exam that only the truly competent will pass. Make the profession one that people will respect. So, yeah, sign me up for the Neato plan.</p>

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<p>That won’t happen in the public schools, as long as the state requires degrees from education schools. Highly competitive admissions systems limit student numbers. Limited enrollment = limited prospective teacher tuition $ for universities.</p>

<p>Now, you are welcome to found a school in which the teaching staff are all recycled hedge fund managers and neurosurgeons. I don’t think my child would be showing up for a tour & interview, but no doubt you could find a market. I do think there are people who feel a calling for teaching. </p>

<p>This conversation has developed in interesting ways. What I feel constitutes a “free and appropriate public education” may differ from someone else’s definition. My list of “must haves” and “nice to haves” and “can sacrifice” don’t align with others’ lists, even on CC. Choosing to send a child to a private school demonstrates that my definition of “suitable” differs from my neighbors’ definition. </p>

<p>Classicalmama, as a side note, the table you linked to seems to understate the case for Massachusetts.

[Snapshot:</a> Average Teacher Salaries Snapshot - Boston.com](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/yourtown/massfacts/snapshot_average_teacher_salaries_massachusetts_school_districts_07_08/]Snapshot:”>http://www.boston.com/yourtown/massfacts/snapshot_average_teacher_salaries_massachusetts_school_districts_07_08/)</p>

<p>Note that the figures cited in the table are for average salaries. Senior teachers, with advanced degrees, will receive much more. I don’t think this data includes benefits.</p>

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<p>Hi Periwinkle. I think you are missing my point. The point isn’t to put hedge fund managers and neurosurgeons in the classroom. The point is to make the barrier to entry of the field difficult enough AND provide economic intensives attractive enough that only the highly qualified teachers can make it into a classroom in front of a group of kids. </p>

<p>Private schools DO go through a different route to find teachers. They recruit from selective LACs, not the state college system, where the college grads majored in the subject matter, not in education. They also have more of a support system in place for new teachers, where the older department members will help guide and mentor the new student.</p>

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<p>Agree with Neato and Classicalmama and actually see this (teacher candidate quality assurance) happening, albeit way too slowly. Teachers entering the profession now are required to take tests that are increasing in both number and complexity and it is screening out some young people who thought teaching was easy to get into. Of course ETS and Pearson are making TONS of money as teaching candidates test and re-test and re-test but it will ultimately “raise the bar.” Additionally, as the job market tightens for young people, a teaching job with benefits is looking better to a higher caliber of student. But even some of the best young teachers burn out with the increasing number of mandates (aimed at the bottom half, which is another story) and burgeoning class size. I’ve met some amazing young teachers who enter the profession with passion and energy and five years down the road they are using videos and worksheets with the best of 'em. So where is the money going? Health care and mandates like testing and textbooks, not salaries.</p>

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<p>My own teachers education program, which came out of U.Mass Amherst 25 years ago, is, I think, an example of the kind of program you are describing. The program recruited only 25 students. We were all required to have bachelors degrees in our field (math, science, and English). Most of my fellow students had worked in their fields, done stints in the Peace Corps, and otherwise lived real lives before coming into teaching. While I don’t honestly know how selective the program was, everyone I can remember had graduated from a good college. </p>

<p>We did an intensive semester’s worth of education classes the first summer, then taught summer school. There, we were taught how to teach in the morning by a master teacher, then observed as we taught in the afternoons. We then spent a half-year teaching high school and a half-year teaching in industry, under continual observation by our master teacher from summer school; an education school faculty member; and our school’s department heads. We took night school classes while we were teaching, and finished up our coursework in another intensive summer. The combination of the meaningful classwork, the life experience and education of the students, and, most importantly, the instruction and constant critique from skilled master teachers was really an unbeatable introduction to teaching. And they paid us for our work in the schools and industry, essentially underwriting our tuition. </p>

<p>Another example: The Curry School of Education at the University of Virginia changed its ed. school program many years ago to a 5-year program; students simultaneously earn a bachelors degree from the College of Arts and Sciences and a graduate level education degree.</p>

<p>Many schools of education have been doing the right thing for a long time. And, again, while those lazy teachers who abuse union rules to stay in jobs they should have left years before are an embarrassment to the profession, they do not represent the majority of teachers. In my own small town, which you would think would not attract the best teachers in the state, recent hires have been uniformly excellent. The less qualified teachers who’ve lived here all their lives and assumed they’d slide into a job immediately upon graduation from college are employed–as substitute teachers.</p>

<p>I second wcmom–let’s talk about the way mediocre, expensive, politically or religiously correct required textbooks; spiralling health care costs that lead to drastic program cuts; and mandatory testing are sucking the soul out of American education.</p>

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<p>Please don’t forget that teachers are pushed to administer tests constantly to determine progress towards passing state exams. I spend time in schools throughout the year (across the country) and the number one complaint is having to “teach to a test.”</p>

<p>Add to that poorly vetted curriculums and text books shoved down their throats by district administrators, no consistency, class sizes that are often too large or contain multiple needs and learning styles (even among bright students) and you’ve got a disaster that even the best teachers have difficulty overcoming.</p>

<p>Good teachers are getting out of the field - and for good reason. I once yelled at a superintendent for saying teachers deserved “combat pay.” Now I think she may be right.</p>

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<p>Of course, there is also an urban/rural divide to what ails public schools to some degree. While many of us are grieving school districts that have deteriorated in this last decade because of NCLB and its expensive mandates (excessive testing and de-motivating curriculum), there are many urban districts that have been broken for far longer. NCLB was designed to fix broken districts, but in reality it hasn’t fixed them and has negatively impacted districts that once met local needs. Add health care costs and VOILA… I didn’t want to bail and pay a heavy price for doing so (financially AND socially). I’m still in the public arena fighting as best I can, but won’t compromise my kids’ education while I fight and hope for change. Maybe their good education will allow them to lead us out of this mess. There are plenty of private school grads who are still trying (Jonathan Kozol, etc.).</p>

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<p>wcmom1958,</p>

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<p>I’m right there with you. Today our state announced that they were revamping standards to force schools to meet a higher benchmark towards accreditation (because too many schools were ranked high). I’m fine with setting the bar higher.</p>

<p>But how are they going to do it? By demanding the students take more assessment tests and teachers give more intermediate tests to gauge progress.</p>

<p>Which means more teaching to the test and less “finding out why” the child is floundering (home life, needs meds, needs nutrition, dyslexic, or just has a unique learning style, etc…) No time allocated to differentiated teaching - just a one size fits all test.</p>

<p>There is a saying that problems arise to send us a message. If we fix the problem without getting the message, it will come back and send a louder message.</p>

<p>Every day that I mourn the fact that I can’t hug my child before she retires for the night, I rejoice that she decided to go to a school where the teachers care and her friends are true peers in terms of aspirations and work ethic.</p>