Negative Undergrad Experience?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
1

<p>It seems as though every person I know has input on the college application process. Several family members have strongly cautioned me against attending MIT because, in their opinion, the undergrad experience is far from positive. The main argument is that since there are so many grad students, I would have few opportunities for research and many TA's who may or may not care. In addition to claims of huge lectures and almost unbearable pressure, their comments have been persistent enough to make me wonder if MIT is the best school for me. While I am certainly aware that no school is perfect, I was wondering is anyone had any opinions on the subject. </p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

2

<p>There are about as many grad students as undergrads at MIT, so it's not like there are five billion. There are about 6,000 graduate students and 4,000 undergrads.</p>

<p>The presence of grad students really doesn't affect the average undergrad's life a huge deal in general. As to research, professors don't hire UROPs for the same reasons they have grad students, and most labs at MIT are a healthy mix of undergrads, grad students, and postdocs. The presence of grad students absolutely does not affect the availability of undergrad research positions (and I'm not sure why anyone would imply that it would?). The major effect that the presence of graduate students has is that undergrads are able to take advanced graduate courses along with the graduate students, which is interesting and fun (not to mention that grad classes are tremendously grade-inflated).</p>

<p>Lectures aren't generally large at MIT -- the biggest lectures are usually during freshman year, when all 1000 freshmen choose from a small number of General Institute Requirement classes. My biggest freshman class was 250 people, and of course that was just for lecture. The course was broken up into recitation sections of about 10-12 people. According to the common</a> data set, the modal class size at MIT is 2-9 students.</p>

<p>I'll accept that there's pressure -- MIT students are very driven, and tend to pressure themselves tremendously. But I won't accept that graduate students negatively impact the student experience, or that class sizes are generally large. I certainly had a positive experience as an MIT undergrad, as did all of my friends.</p>

<p>EDIT: One thing that might be worth mentioning is that many people prefer to give opinions on MIT which seem to be based entirely on rumor and caricature. Like any caricature, there are elements of truth (people here like math, tend to work too hard, etc), but these elements are exaggerated for effect. I'd encourage admits to visit at CPW and see for themselves if MIT students seem pressured beyond belief (or unable to converse intelligently about literature, or whatever the rumor du jour happens to be). Often people find that MIT students and MIT life are a bit more complex than popular opinion gives them credit for. :)</p>

3

<p>The one common thread about the (numerous) people I know who were happy as MIT undergrads is that they really, really loved their academic work. It wasn't their whole lives or anything, but I think you're most likely to be happy there if you're the kind of person who will get excited about your big engineering or chemistry project and truly have fun working. It's a great place to be excited and passionate about learning hard things.</p>

4

<p>Having studied at a research university myself, I consider the presence of graduate students on campus a feature, not a bug. It raises the intellectual level of the whole school.</p>

5

<p>I'll second the opinions about the positive aspects of having a large graduate program on campus. I have two undergrad degrees and a PhD from large research universities (not MIT), and in every case I thought undergraduates who were interested in current research benefited from the presence of graduate students.</p>

<p>As for stories about MIT--I don't have any personal experience, but I will pass on that when two of my husband's colleagues (both professors who earned their doctorates at MIT) heard that our son was planning to apply to MIT, both advised against it, saying that their impression was that undergraduates were not happy, and seemed very stressed. That didn't dissuade my son from applying this year, as he is a very hard worker and already handles a lot of different interests and activities. If you aren't that type, I suppose you would be very well advised to ask pertinent questions of current students.</p>

6

<p>Larry Benedict, the MIT dean for student life, was once quoted in The Tech as follows:

[quote]
MIT is the kind of place you love to hate, but you really don't hate it. What you hate about it is the enormous pressure that people put on you here and which you also put on yourself. What you love about it is the enormous pressure people put on you and you put on yourself and that you can accomplish and succeed and produce and learn... students are telling me they're having a great experience here however you look at it. They're exhausted, they don't sleep enough, they don't eat enough, they get frustrated and depressed, but at the end of the road, they have a fabulous experience, but they hate how hard it was to get there.

[/quote]

That rings true for me -- I had a few truly stupidly intense terms, terms where I should have known better than to try to balance all of the things I had on my plate. And the experience during those terms, particularly at midterm week and the last week of classes, was something like trying to tread water for several hours while balancing an encyclopedia on my head. But the sense of accomplishment at the end of those terms was profound enough and rewarding enough that I did it several times, and that I look back at those terms as being very character-building.</p>

7

<p>is there any way to get enough sleep at mit?
i dont mind working hard, its just that i get sick easily
its never really been a problem in hs, but is mit that much harder?</p>

8

<p>To OP: you might want to look at [url=<a href="http://community.livejournal.com/mitmit/207863.html?nc=36%5Dthis%5B/url"&gt;http://community.livejournal.com/mitmit/207863.html?nc=36]this[/url&lt;/a&gt;] -- if you read the comments, there are some negative opinions (or at the very least not-entirely-complimentary) about.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]

is there any way to get enough sleep at mit?

[/quote]

Yes. It is called time management. I got 7.5 hours of sleep on average on schoolnights after freshman year. If you want sleep, you just have to make it one of your priorities.</p>

<p>And yes, it's that much harder. But you'll learn to work that much harder, too, so it works out in the end.</p>

10

<p>Physical exercise probably makes getting sufficient sleep easier.</p>

11

<p>I'm an alum, so things might have changed, but I doubt that they have changed a lot. MIT students tend to have smaller classes than many other schools. Grad students do not teach recitations, they are taught by faculty. The UROP program is first rate and an overwhelming percentage of MIT students do graduate having done real research. My view is that any criticism based on these factors is probably wrong.</p>

<p>As to the friendliness of the atmosphere, I personally thought it was great. I was friendly with quite a few of the faculty while I was on campus (I went to dinner at their homes - this was not a mere wave in the hallway). Many of them are very approachable and friendly, some of course are not. </p>

<p>Possible issues: The international campus. This can be a negative and a positive. You will meet people from all over the world at MIT, and that can be very exciting. MIT does have a vast number of visiting faculty from overseas. I did have to shift one of my classes after being unable to understand the visiting professor from the University in Beijing who spoke with a very strong accent.</p>

<p>The pressure: Its real, its largely self-inflicted, and it is occasionally crushing. There have been cases of suicide at MIT, from students who could not cope. The school does take steps to try to reduce it somewhat, and to provide outlets, but the students who cannot cope are generally the same ones least likely to take advantage of the counselors and other resources offered. This is a highly personal thing. It energised me, and most of my friends, but I was friendly with many who did not enjoy it.</p>

<p>The social life: See pressure. This is also likely self directed, and likely to vary by student. Heck MIT has made Playboy's list of the top party schools in the country on several occasions. Some 25 years ago, MIT was simultaneously at the top of the New York times list of the top work-slog schools in the country and in the top 10 of Playboy's list of party schools.</p>

<p>When you read the admissions office website, they spend a lot of time talking about the match, and it is a two-way street. There are students who would thrive at MIT and students who would not. Some of this is academically based, but much of it is not. </p>

<p>Nobody can tell you whether MIT is the right school for you. I can tell you it was the right school for me. Visit the campus, talk to people there, see if you would enjoy it. I had very good friends who went to Harvard down the road and I saw them a lot. As a rule, they had more classes run by grad students and less research opportunities than I had. </p>

<p>Frankly, Harvard would not have been the right school for me, I spent a fair amount of time there and I always found it a little bit pretentious in a way that made me uncomfortable. I was talking to a very good friend who loved Harvard and felt very much at home there. She told me that she never really felt comfortable on the MIT campus. It always felt a little bit pretentious in a way that made her uncomfortable.</p>

<p>Find the school where you feel that you would thrive and don't let anyone make that decision for you.</p>

12

<p>Not to be offensive or anything, but I think those family members of yours got it reeeeeally wrong!</p>

13

<p>Yeah, the TAs all care and you can pretty much do any kind of research you want the day you walk on campus.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Yeah, the TAs all care and you can pretty much do any kind of research you want the day you walk on campus.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's be real. Not "all" the TAs care, and you don't QUITE have the liberty to do "pretty much any kind of research" the day you walk on campus.</p>

<p>Pointless exaggerations help no one.</p>

15

<p>I think most of the TAs care. Some of them just aren't good teachers. </p>

<p>Luckily, if your TA doesn't care, it is usually pretty easy to switch recitations to a better TA. (Or you could take my route, which often involved not going to recitations entirely.)</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
The main argument is that since there are so many grad students,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I think the real question is, what's the alternative? What are you comparing it to? I would point out that Harvard has a far higher grad-student:undergrad-student ratio than MIT does (about 2:1 vs. 1.5:1) </p>

<p>Look, if you never want to worry about grad students, then don't go to MIT. And don't go to any of the Ivies either, or to Stanford, or Caltech, and any of those other usual suspects. Instead, go to a LAC. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I would have few opportunities for research

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nah, this is almost certainly a red herring. Because of UROP, I would argue that MIT is actually one of the * premier * places to go for research opportunities, and in fact, is one of MIT's main selling points. While I can't quantify this, I will say that MIT almost certainly have more undergraduate research opportunities per capita than the vast vast majority of other schools out there. I think there is no comparison on this front between MIT and, say, any of the large public universities, simply because the sheer size of the undergraduate programs at the latter make it extremely difficult to service individual undergrads. </p>

<p>
[quote]
and many TA's who may or may not care

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, yes, but the same holds at other schools. There are TA's at Harvard who are mediocre at best and who don't care. There are TA's at any of the large public universities who don't care. Any university that uses TA's will have some who don't care. I am not aware of any evidence to indicate that MIT is any worse on this front. </p>

<p>
[quote]
While I am certainly aware that no school is perfect, I was wondering is anyone had any opinions on the subject.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look, there are definitely serious reasons not to choose MIT. But those reasons that your family members cited do not strike me as serious objections, as MIT is probably no worse than most comparable schools on those metrics you cited, and on one metric, regarding undergraduate research, is almost certainly better. </p>

<p>What I suspect is really happening is that your family members are actually trying to steer you towards a more prestigious school - i.e. Harvard - so they are coming up with quibbles regarding MIT despite the fact that Harvard is probably no better than MIT on any of those metrics they cited. But if that's what they're doing, then I think they should at least be honest enough to tell you that that's what they're doing.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
Let's be real. Not "all" the TAs care, and you don't QUITE have the liberty to do "pretty much any kind of research" the day you walk on campus.
Pointless exaggerations help no one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, well I've been here a few years and personally seen no examples to the contrary.</p>

18

<p>I think as someone said earlier, the key to enjoying MIT is to like what you're doing. You don't have to live and breath math and science, but you better at least find it interesting and exciting. It would be hard to do the work otherwise.</p>