Neglect for undergraduates?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>Hello everyone!</p>

<p>I am under the impression that due to Harvard's reputation and affluence some professors regard teaching undergraduate students almost as an unecessary nuissance. I am speaking specifically about the Sciences at Harvard. It seem to me that the real research is 'reserved' for the graduate students and if you get involved as an undergraduate you will mostly be getting people coffee. To what extent is this true? Could any of you please elaborate on the general attitude of professors towards undergraduates?</p>

<p>Thank you so much!</p>

2

<p>Okay. This topic has discussed at length in this forum. The general consensus? This "neglect for undergraduates" is solely a myth and stereotype.</p>

3

<p>The intro professors are some of the best and the brightest (George Whitesides teaches intro Phys, David Liu teaches intro bio, David Anderson teaches intro gen chem, Eric Jacobson teaches intro orgo), so no to unnecessary nuisance.</p>

<p>I'm getting primary authorship on a paper I've been working on since sophomore spring (I'm a junior now). A friend has been working in Norm Mailor's lab since freshman year (heavy-hitter in HIV research) and has several publications. So no to getting coffee. </p>

<p>A little independent searching around the forum will get you plenty of references to professor-student contact being great and the research opportunities also being great.</p>

4

<p>I think that there was a bunch of bad press around 2003 about this subject, and this stereotype is starting to permeate. If you're going to apply next year I don't think you're going to have to worry about that. Harvard has been pretty open about getting its act together with undergraduates. I wouldn't worry about that at H at all. You're going to have to be assertive I'm sure, you won't be coddled, but that's what you're going to have to do at any large prestigious university.</p>

5

<p>xjayz and h-bomber: Please don't take my post as criticism towards Harvard. I am simply trying to clarify an issue which is of great importance to me. You are right I should have researched the forum a bit more because this issue has been discussed before. Anyway the bad press that innervisions was talking about is presumably this:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/?page=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/?page=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

6

<p>
[quote]
It seem to me that the real research is 'reserved' for the graduate students and if you get involved as an undergraduate you will mostly be getting people coffee.

[/quote]

I'm a graduate student in biology at Harvard, and I'll be working with an undergraduate starting this summer (the summer after his freshman year). This summer, I'll mostly just be teaching him techniques and methods around the lab, but after he learns how to do experiments and think through his results, he'll be designing his own project to complete for his senior thesis.</p>

<p>He will most emphatically never be getting anyone coffee.</p>

<p>We have three other undergraduates in our lab, and another who is graduating this semester, and all of them have independent research projects of their own. They do their work in close consultation with graduate students and postdocs, but they are certainly involved in "real research". My faculty advisor thinks it is very important to have undergraduates in the lab.</p>

7

<p>That globe article is from 2005, and accompanied a Crimson article about differences in student happiness between Harvard and Yale. Harvard has since completely revamped its undergraduate approach. </p>

<p>Also, I'm sorry if I came off as curt. I'm studying for the MCAT a week from today so I don't have time to write out longer posts.</p>

8

<p>"Harvard has since completely revamped its undergraduate approach."</p>

<p>And most of us were very happy prior to this period. The class of '99 had tremendous turnout at our 5th reunion. The graduation rate was the highest in country back then, just as it is now. Our alumni giving rate has also been among the highest in the country for decades, outpacing many of the universities that supposedly out-happified us on that less-than-scientific study. [url=<a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-alumchrtbk0703-1.html%5DWSJ.com%5B/url"&gt;http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-alumchrtbk0703-1.html]WSJ.com[/url&lt;/a&gt;] (click on "How the Colleges Rank").</p>

9

<p>One of Harvard's main focus is undergrad education. The professors at Harvard are not different than the professors at other top universities. It's not like a professor at Stanford or MIT would have more time and be more undergrad oriented than the professors at Harvard.</p>

<p>I'm a engineering grad student doing research and I've been turned away by professors when I wanted to talk because they wanted extra time to prepare for their undergraduate courses/lectures.</p>

10

<p>Harvard profs aren't going to call you if you don't come to class, but they are very open and available if you make the effort. Making the effort includes signing up for some classes where it's easier to get to know the professors - freshmen seminars, other seminars, language classes, VES classes - there are lots of classes with plenty of give and take between professors and students.</p>

11

<p>I wanna thank everyone for their wonderful input! I realise that I'm not going to be cuddled and cared for like a baby during college but I do want my professors to know my name and really care about me - whether I go well or bad in their class.</p>

<p>You mention that Harvard has improved the undergrad experience since 2005. Exaclty what steps has the administration taken? Also, from what I gather, core classes and intro classes are the huge lectures and then as you progress to more advanced classes the numbers go down quickly to maybe 20 or 15. Is that correct?</p>

<p>Once again thanks to everyone!</p>

12

<p>That's correct as a very broad generalization, but you can take small seminars your very first semester if you want to. Freshman seminars are available only to first-year students, taught by faculty members, and capped at 12 (?) students. Expository Writing is always a small class. Intro languages and math are usually taught entirely in sections (i.e. small groups). And if it's important to you, you can find small classes in many departments that don't have prerequisites.</p>

13

<p>However freshmen seminars are only graded pass/fail so advisors recommend you only take one so your transcript doesn't look bad. Many intro classses are huge lectures (Psych, Justice, Economics..), with only contact of TFs who have their own grad work as a priority, and too many papers to grade.</p>

14

<p>Harvard is not going to compare with a top LAC in terms of personal attention from professors. However, it is no less attentive than any other university. </p>

<p>Concentrations (majors) with small numbers generally have smaller classes.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
However freshmen seminars are only graded pass/fail so advisors recommend you only take one so your transcript doesn't look bad

[/quote]

I think this is misguided advice... I'm sorry if you got it from an advisor. Taking two freshman seminars is a wonderful idea for freshman year (although it can be hard to find the space with Expos, language requirement, other classes).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Many intro classses are huge lectures (Psych, Justice, Economics..), with only contact of TFs who have their own grad work as a priority, and too many papers to grade.

[/quote]

Funny you say that, my Justice TF is probably the best teacher I've had at Harvard so far... but TF quality can definitely be a mixed bag. When I took Ec10, I got to have a few conversations with Mankiw... could have had more if I wasn't lazy + was up for waking up earlier. I think that's very typical - professors (even in large classes) respond to your emails, hold office hours, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You mention that Harvard has improved the undergrad experience since 2005. Exaclty what steps has the administration taken?

[/quote]

Thrown a huge amount of time + money into the advising program (more faculty as freshman advisors, peer advising program, more information about concentration choice).
Redone the Core (although I'm not sure GenEd will be significantly different).
Pushed concentration choice back until sophomore year.
Added significantly more freshman seminars.
Invested in student life initiatives -- the Pub, Lamont Cafe, better concerts, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
core classes and intro classes are the huge lectures and then as you progress to more advanced classes the numbers go down quickly to maybe 20 or 15

[/quote]

I think this is a good rule of thumb - but you can definitely find small cores (or small departmental classes that count as cores) and small intro classes (intro sociology is ~30 people, for example). Also, massive "upper level" classes exist -- like Positive Psych.</p>