<p>I don't think that spideygirl understands the subtle nuances of leetspeak...</p>
<p>@ hotpiece101, is every single black American living in poverty? No, so why should the collective group be treated as such? If poverty is what presents a disadvantage, why is it that race is what is being looked at, instead of that? Being black doesn't automatically mean that you're poor.</p>
<p>If you can show whether because you were discriminated against or whether you were presented with challenges and less opportunities because of you were poor, that you have achieved that same results as another applicant with the same "stats", I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be accepted over the other applicant; however, I do not think that you should receive a boost solely because you happen to be x race.</p>
<p>"And I wasn't necessarily arguing for affirmative action, I was just addressing a inaccuracy I saw in Charisma's post. This country is in no way a level playing field, at least not yet."</p>
<p>I didn't say that the country is an even playing field; it never will be. But for college admissions, I don't consider it an even playing field if one group gets a boost simply because of the color of their skin, and not because of their achievements or the things they overcame to get their achievements (btw, not that I mean that URMs don't have achievements, etc.). I don't believe that a rich black kid overcame more than a poor intercity white kid simply because he happens to be black and the other, white.</p>
<p>@ So Authentic, how about we do this: "the people that grew up not having equal amount of resources as other people should at least get some sort of leeway." Being black does not automatically mean you must be poor/disadvantaged.</p>
<p>Charisma, I never argued for or against affirmative action. If you notice in my post, I said that some members of certain minority groups don't need a boost.</p>
<p>
You asserted that AA is unnatural because it causes the would-be level playing field to be unfairly tilted towards URMs, at least, that is what this sentence implied.</p>
<p>
But once again, you misunderstand. Being black in this country means that the odds are that you will be born poor or grow up in a single family house and not go to college. So, economic and social issues often correlate with being black. </p>
<p>And do you honestly think that admissions officers line up the apps of a rich black kid and a poor white kid side-by-side and choose between them? If anything, they probably compare a rich black kid to a rich white kid because both had access to the same resources. Do they choose the rich black kid because they want more color in their class or do they choose him because they feel that he has somehow accomplished more than his white counterpart? I don't know and I won't presume to know.</p>
<p>enderkin - "I don't think that spideygirl understands the subtle nuances of leetspeak"</p>
<p>Now you are the official meanie, because you are picking on an old lady like me for not knowing this stuff. Does not understand the "subtle nuiances"? I didn't even know what the word meant - I had to google it. But now I am excited, because YOU have taught ME something. :)</p>
<p>@ hotpiece, Did you see my edit?</p>
<p>
[quote]
"And I wasn't necessarily arguing for affirmative action, I was just addressing a inaccuracy I saw in Charisma's post. This country is in no way a level playing field, at least not yet."</p>
<p>I didn't say that the country is an even playing field; it never will be. But for college admissions, I don't consider it an even playing field if one group gets a boost simply because of the color of their skin, and not because of their achievements or the things they overcame to get their achievements (btw, not that I mean that URMs don't have achievements, etc.). I don't believe that a rich black kid overcame more than a poor intercity white kid simply because he happens to be black and the other, white.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What angers me is how Asians get no boost whatsoever. It's not like Asians have never experienced discrimination. Just because our economic status is good, does not mean that we were simply handed well-paying jobs etc. Asians have had to overcome the same barriers that African Americans overcame along with cultural barriers, especially learning a new language.</p>
<p>I just saw your edit and edited my post, Charisma.</p>
<p>"But once again, you misunderstand. Being black in this country means that the odds are that you will be born poor or grow up in a single family house and not go to college. So, economic and social issues often correlate with being black."</p>
<p>Exactly, it's just a correlation, and not causation, and odds are just odds, once you're born, you're poor or you're not. Why would considering solely your socioeconomic status and not your race not work equally well?</p>
<p>"And do you honestly think that admissions officers line up the apps of a rich black kid and a poor white kid side-by-side and choose between them? If anything, they probably compare a rich black kid to a rich white kid because both had access to the same resources. Do they choose the rich black kid because they want more color in their class or do they choose him because they feel that he has somehow accomplished more than his white counterpart? I don't know and I won't presume to know."</p>
<p>I'm not saying that they do this, it's just an example to show that just because you're black doesn't meant that somehow you are automatically poorer and more disadvantaged than someone of another race (on an individual basis, and not averages or statistics).</p>
<p>"You asserted that AA is unnatural because it causes the would-be level playing field to be unfairly tilted towards URMs, at least, that is what this sentence implied."</p>
<p>I do think that (regarding college admissions), but only that it's unfair to consider solely skin color and not anything that MAY be correlated to skin color; to me, giving all people of x race would be giving an advantage to people who need it and also people who do not, so it's hardly levels the playing field.</p>
<p>SO Authentic: "Well, I don't think every person of a certain minority or racial group deserves a boost, BUT most people of that minority group probably need a little help. I mean, let's consider African Americans. A quarter of us are living below the poverty line, more than half are growing up in single-parent households, less than 1/5 have a college education. The median income is ~$33,000 a year."</p>
<p>Nicely put, and therefore persuasive.</p>
<p>I'm all for helping people out when they need it. But it should be because they need help and not because of their race. If at a certain point in time more of the people who need help fall into one group or another, so be it. That is coincidence, because my focus would be not to help people of a certain race, but instead of a certain need.</p>
<p>You know, if you consider that Baby Boomers are the first African Americans to have any shot at all to achieve the American Dream, they could in this respect anyway be compared to people who just arrived from another place. This is sort of the first generation. And when you look at the success of this first generation, the impact it has had on our culture, the number of prominent people who have come from it, the story is really much more optimistic than most people consider. I have heard many generalizations about different ethnic groups having made a particularly impressive impact in the country in a short period of time. I would count African Americans as among them. As soon as they had even a shot at getting out from under, their impact in this country became explosive.</p>
<p>
<p> [quote=Charisma] I'm not saying that they do this, it's just an example to show that just because you're black doesn't meant that somehow you are automatically poorer and more disadvantaged than someone of another race (on an individual basis, and not averages or statistics).
I mean, being black doesn't necessarily ensure that you are going to be poorer than another race, but it does come with the very high likelihood that you will be discriminated against. How bad this discrimination is would probably be a factor in whether or not you are more disadvantaged than another race (although, I hate trying to quantify racial disadvantages because most minority groups in this country face some kind of discrimination).</p>
<p>And spideygirl, that was my quote, not So Authentic's. He just requoted it. But, I sorta disagree about the great strides African Americans have made in this country. I mean, sure, there are more prominent black people doing great things but there are also more poor blacks. One thing a lot of people (black and white alike) don't really want to talk about are the negative effects of integration. I'm not for separation or anything (I don't want anyone thinking I'm some kind of crazy Garveyite), but after integration, the black middle class declined, the number of black-owned businesses greatly declined and the number of high-school educated blacks also declined. It was only after integration that we got into this crazy culture of trying to be black enough and not focusing on education and not caring about a two-parent home. Now, with all that said, I still think integration did a lot for black people and I really do hope that things get better in the future. But, (and I'm going to admit this at the risk of "airing dirty laundry") it seems to me that Black people just aren't getting their acts together. We've been stuck in this rut for so long that I think many have accepted it as their inevitable future that they will be poor and they will live in the ghetto and college is a waste of time. I see it everyday with my extended family and it saddens me. I think that once black people change their mindset and <em>if</em> discrimination becomes less commonplace, then we may have a more optimistic future.</p>
<p>@ spideygirl, FYI, that was hotpiece's quote that So Authentic was quoting.</p>
<p>"I'm all for helping people out when they need it. But it should be because they need help and not because of their race. If at a certain point in time more of the people who need help fall into one group or another, so be it. That is coincidence, because my focus would be not to help people of a certain race, but instead of a certain need."</p>
<p>So why support something that considers solely race and not those needs?</p>
<p>Fabrizio: My argument is clearly against segregation.</p>
<p>charisma: "So why support something that considers solely race and not those needs?"</p>
<p>This is answered repetitively in my previous posts. Ask me something more specific or challenge a particular aspect of my argument (if you'd like).</p>
<p>"I mean, being black doesn't necessarily ensure that you are going to be poorer than another race, but it does come with the very high likelihood that you will be discriminated against. How bad this discrimination is would probably be a factor in whether or not you are more disadvantaged than another race (although, I hate trying to quantify racial disadvantages because most minority groups in this country face some kind of discrimination)."</p>
<p>I agree that being black gives you a higher likelihood of being poor/disadvantaged (considering it's a fact >.<) ... you agree and being black does not automatically mean poor/disadvantaged ... you don't support or disagree with AA ... what are we disagreeing on?</p>
<p>"This is answered repetitively in my previous posts. Ask me something more specific or challenge a particular aspect of my argument (if you'd like)."</p>
<p>Kindly find these posts for me/reiterate, because I read your posts earlier and can't find it.</p>
<p>"What angers me is how Asians get no boost whatsoever. It's not like Asians have never experienced discrimination. Just because our economic status is good, does not mean that we were simply handed well-paying jobs etc. Asians have had to overcome the same barriers that African Americans overcame along with cultural barriers, especially learning a new language."</p>
<p>burnedout21, Though I'm not asian, I can't imagine how appalling it is to discriminate against asians just because they're quote & quote "smart". Yeah, thats the stereotype going around and I'm sure the adcoms you that against them. Its kind of sad because the whole URM thing is geared mostly towards blacks & forgetting that many asians are URMs also and not all of them have access to quality education. So why put them at a disadvantage. I think they need to pay a lot of attention to the financial aid applications because that will shed a lot of light</p>
<p>You know, if you consider that Baby Boomers are the first African Americans to have any shot at all to achieve the American Dream,</p>
<p>spidey, I don't understand this statement. do you mean to switch Baby Boomers in the place of African Americans?</p>
<p>Charisma, I was just disagreeing about your post that implied that the playing field would be level if AA didn't exist. But, since you said you didn't really mean that, then I guess we have no disagreement.</p>
<p>spideygirl,</p>
<p>Well, I apologize, because your argument is not clear to me.</p>
<p>You wrote that preferring race is no different from preferring high GPAs. You suggested that if there is nothing wrong with preferring high GPAs, then there's nothing wrong with preferring certain races. That absolves segregation of its sin.</p>
<p>"That absolves segregation of its sin."</p>
<p>I agree. Prefering high GPAs is way different from prefering race. Of course its justifiable that a college will prefer students that achieved a hgh GPA, but to prefer one race over the other is sick!</p>
<p>Is it the fault of Asians that they are poor? Most Asians in this country are immigrants and children of immigrants? Africans are poor because they are for the most part unmotivated in school and the work force. Why are there more black single parent households? That is because they as a race are more promicious and have sex before marriage. Once again why does the irresponsibility of that fall on asians?</p>
<p>Most of the blacks at top schools (80%) are upper middle class students. Yet they are given a boost when asian immigrants are not. The asian kids probably had it harder in school. They had to learn a new language which might not even be spoken at home? Most african americans speak english at home. Yet their critical reading scores are lower. Whose fault is that? theirs. SHould people be giving preference for belonging to their race? NO. Race doesn't define a person.</p>