<p>And that's the good part of it. The system seems very well made and a good idea for a large university like Michigan. The only thing that bothers me is the idea that they're trying to nudge in an ability to once again include race in the admissions process for the sake of diversity according to statistics. I thought the real purpose of AA was to assist underprivileged people. That could have been achieved by looking at economic conditions of a family instead, including where they're located and other things that this new system will take into effect. I think that it is important to have this kind of equality and equal opportunity ---</p>
<p>At this point in trying to type this, I give up. You're mostly right. It is good for everyone involved for the university to be diverse as long as it isn't at the price of quality, and as long as it isn't something as problematic as AA. I just don't know how UM will handle this new system. It depends on the importance they're placing on race within the data they get. If someone is simply a minority and they get large benefits in admissions because of it - because of their race - that's AA and that's the university striving for statistical diversity, not real diversity. If the university looks at their race and correlates it with their actual socioeconomic conditions that would warrant higher chances of admission than their statistics would grant, that is fine. As long as it isn't overdone.</p>
<p>The concept of diversity is critical to the composition of a class of real students but it is only when the whole comes together can the issue of broad diversity be properly studied in terms of its parts: the students who are in a given applicant pool, admitted, and finally attend. So the HE goal of "achieving diversity" is indeed multi-dimensional and dynamic and changes year to year - and that is the way holistic admissions works. When it comes to AA and the role of race, ethnicity and gender, the U-M's "Evaluation Guidelines" and "Evaluation Procedure" provide valuable insight into how the ad com members look at each file and the information culled from the new software program. In this wider context, socioeconomic and educational background information, broken down in terms of demographic clustering, are just pieces of a larger picture to be put together. As the mission overview states "Admissions is more art than science: the admissions process is designed to consider all aspects of an applicant?s record and experience and is not intended to admit applicants solely on the basis of grade point averages, test scores, or any other single criterion.":</p>
<p>
[quote]
The application form is designed to facilitate individualized, holistic consideration, with special attention to providing opportunities for all applicants to demonstrate the ways in which they would contribute intellectually and socially to the life and diversity of the University. The application provides opportunities for the applicants to describe unique characteristics and circumstances regarding their academic background and their community and family experiences (including with respect to their family?s socioeconomic status and education levels), as presented in teacher and counselor recommendations, written responses, and extracurricular and work activities. Throughout the process, admissions staff has the ability to consider all factors that could contribute to an applicant?s success at the University of Michigan and their ability to add to our dynamic and vibrant educational community...</p>
<p>Variety in life experience and challenges also contributes to the diversity on campus that enriches the learning environment for all students. Accordingly, consideration will be given to applicants with particular indicators such as parents? lack of exposure to higher education, single-parent upbringing, a deceased parent, necessary and excessive work hours while attending school, and overcoming extraordinary obstacles. Neighborhood and High School clusters that are characterized by families with limited access to educational opportunities, low income, and high interest in financial need, can also be helpful in identifying a an applicant?s socioeconomic background
Geographic Considerations</p>
<p>Variety in geographic backgrounds also contributes to the diversity of the class. As a public institution, the University also gives consideration to in-state applicants. An applicant may receive discretionary consideration for residency in an underrepresented in-state or out-of-state geographic area, or underrepresented neighborhood or high school cluster...
<p>I don't understand the cynicism here. U-Michigan values diversity, but one of the criticisms leveled at the place was that it seemed to care overmuch about racial and ethnic diversity, and paid insufficient attention to other kinds. Here's a system that is designed to make sure Michigan gets more of the students who typically haven't applied or enrolled in the past. That will mean students from different social/family/economic backgrounds, different neighborhoods, different schools. It seems to me that this quite directly addresses some of strongest complaints that some people used to have against the school.</p>
<p>And yes, this can most certainly benefit kids of races that would not benefit from a more-typical affirmative action program.</p>
<p>The new system really is a great admissions strategy and fascinating experiment for post AA since it is race and gender blind on two fronts - whole folder review (holistic admissions) and socioeconomic/demographic diversity.</p>
<p>Apparently Brandeis uses the tool to identify the socio-economic profile of their most successful students, and then to better market themselves to other neighborhoods with the same profile.</p>
<p>So if you live in a neighborhood that has fed lots of students to Brandeis, you get a fancy pants expensive full color brochure. If you live in a poor neighborhood, you get a postcard.</p>
<p>"High School clusters #23 and #25 predominantly consist of students who are college-bound, academically talented, have excellent test scores and grades, and are wealthy."</p>
<p>"This information is the foundation that we use to tailor our messages to more effectively target, market, and recruit students from these high-end high schools and wealthy suburban neighborhoods."</p>
<p>I'm speechless. The fact that they would boast about this as an admission practice by posting this paper on the internet leaves me even more speechless.</p>
<p>"How can you not take race and ethnicity as a factor at all when you make a class. "</p>
<p>'Cause the voters of Michigan passed a law against doing so? Because MLK said that we should judge people only by the content of their character? Because skin color should be irrelevant to whether you are the best qualified applicant for a spot?</p>
<p>This whole thing is clearly just an end run against the law, which the Mich. administration didn't support in the 1st place. </p>
<p>In civil rights law, when the law forbids express discrimination, its also forbidding to use other criteria that are proxies for race or have a discriminatory effect - for example, say you're not hiring by race but by geography and redline those areas that happen to be predominantly minority. So I'm betting these end runs around the law won't withstand legal challenge either, or they wouldn't if we didn't have double standards on race.</p>
<p>a-dub: since I don't want to go OT, you might want to make your well-taken point about Brandeis' use of Descriptor Plus on the "Colleges advertise for target students" thread - especially since you find this marketing-advertising/recruiting method offensive and insulting.</p>
<p>On the topic of post-AA and admissions practices, it is worth looking at how Oregon State University (OSU) decided to approach holistic admissions. Students are asked to fill out an Insight Resume (Written Experiential Assessment) in addition to the main application.</p>
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[quote]
The answers are evaluated blindly ? reviewers do not see the rest of the application or even know the name of the applicant. Gender, race and ethnicity are apparent only if applicants decide to provide the information.</p>
<p>Since the system was started, minority enrollments have gone up ? not an easy thing when you are a public institution in a state not known for its ethnic diversity. Gains have been particularly notable among Latino students, rising to 775 last year, up from 432 a decade earlier.</p>
<p>The real evidence for the program?s success, Sandlin said, is in academic performance. Skeptics of holistic admissions tend to assume that it benefits students who are somehow weaker because their traditional measures (SAT scores and grades) may be lower. But Sandlin said that Oregon State has found a direct correlation between higher scores on the Insight Resume and retention rates. Average GPA?s are also going up slightly. She said that the qualities being asked about reward determination, hard work, and other qualities that do in fact relate to college success as much as test scores.</p>
<p>Sandlin said that one question she frequently gets on campus is whether the holistic approach ever results in someone being rejected. People assume that those with high grades and test scores still get in, no matter what. To illustrate that this isn?t the case, she discussed two cases that raised so many issues that the university consulted lawyers...
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[quote]
I'm speechless. The fact that they would boast about this as an admission practice by posting this paper on the internet leaves me even more speechless.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Colleges have enrollment management goals that their recruitment activities have to support. It is not cost-efficient to expend the same marketing efforts on every candidate, especially at the "cold calling" point. Why not send your most impressive brochures to students who the school wants the most and/or are the most likely to become interested in the school? It's a solid strategy, and nothing to be ashamed of. </p>
<p>Colleges may do this for high-ability kids, for kids who share a religious affiliation with the institution, for children of alumni, for kids who live in areas known for sending large numbers of students to the school (or schools like it). I can see why at first blush it might surprise outsiders, but when you think about it it should make some sense.</p>
<p>The important thing to realize is that every college makes available loads of information to any student who is interested in the school. They're not being denied attention or information--and certainly not admission! Brandeis may only send a brief info card to most prospects, but every one of those prospects can go to Brandeis' website, read college guidebooks, and so on. And if they express solid interest, Brandeis is likely to send them a lot more than just a postcard.</p>
<p>At least on the surface, this appears to be much better than the old system. Instead of just blindly giving insane boosts/scholarships to URMs of any background to "increase diversity" (at least statistically), they're actually trying to account for socioeconomic status so intelligent but less privileged applicants get the opportunity they deserve. I'm sure this system will have some problems/misidentifications, but I don't see them being nearly as egregious as problems with the current system. In any case, it's a step in the right direction.</p>
<p>Your claim that some here desire all-white schools is not only unfounded but also outrageous.</p>
<p>Your rhetorical question, "How can you not take race and ethnicity as a factor at all when you make a class?" actually has a very definite answer. As Chicago's Graduate School of Business says, they are factors irrelevant to participation in the programs of the University.</p>
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[quote]
Will any of you pro-segregation people ever be happy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We're not for segregation. Your baseless claims don't help your argument.</p>
<p>We'll be happy when this nation stops paying lip service to minorities and starts treating them equally.</p>
<p>Research by Dr. Richard Sander has shown that in the case of law schools, Blacks benefit immensely from race-neutral admissions. They are more likely to graduate, pass the bar on their first try, and become lawyers. What's more, the jobs they land have higher salaries.</p>
<p>The only problem? The increase in confident and talented Black lawyers would be offset by massive unemployment as the NAACP, BAMN, and "Offices of Diversity" would no longer have a reason to exist.</p>
<p>Take your pick. Do you want more Americans living our nation's dream, or do you want to listen to a bunch of elitists tout grievances that don't really affect their supposed constituents?</p>
<p>I'll pick the first option any day of the week.</p>
<p>Is the law school using descriptor plus? I was not aware of this. I am not terribly familiar with Sanders except for his notoriety in that one of his initially-touted papers was published in a non-peer-reviewed law journal. Are you citing from that one?</p>
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[quote]
What's more, the jobs they land [black law students at schools which practice no affirmative action] have higher salaries.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>When discussing affirmative action before the Supreme Court, the law school pointed out that black students are more likely than their white peers to take jobs that help underserved populations. This was being discussed as a public good. </p>
<p>High salaries are a nice measure of "success" but it can have some less-positive aspects, too. Might it not also represent that these black students are joining their white peers in the larger trend of abandoning service for corporate jobs? </p>
<p>It's just some food for thought. </p>
<p>My only other comment is that I think it's curious (and perhaps insupportable) to lump BAMN with diversity offices. BAMN has had an antagonistic relationship with U-M from the get-go.</p>
<p>The point is minorities aren't being treated equally. Where are people getting the idea that things are equal, they are far from equal. When you have people like my white friends dad openly admitting that they wont hire black people, and he doesn't, why don't you think that there are people like this in the adcoms offices. Its just nowadays because it is less socially accepted, they arent as foward about it. That doesn't mean that they aren't prevalent. Something must be done to help those that are underpriveledged(not always minorities), and underrepresented, to combat people like those in a position of power. Be that AA or the new system implemented by UM.</p>
<p>I doubt most law schools use Descriptor Plus. I had never heard of it mentioned before until this thread became a featured discussion.</p>
<p>The conclusions I've referred to come from "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools," which was published in the Stanford Law Review, a journal I assume is peer-reviewed.</p>
<p>Dr. Sander has responded to his critics, namely Professor Kidder and Dr. Ho.</p>
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[quote]
Might it not also represent that these black students are joining their white peers in the larger trend of abandoning service for corporate jobs?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe. I've always read that this trend came from the ever-increasing costs of higher education. Many idealistic young lawyers are faced with the reality that service careers won't pay the bills.</p>
<p>BAMN likes to make stuff up to get people to vote against civil rights initiatives. According to them, ending affirmative action is tantamount to supporting resegregation, racism, sexism, and a slew of other undesirables.</p>
<p>"Offices of Diversity" are only interested in diversity of skin color. Scratch that. Diversity of certain skin color*s*.</p>
<p>Stanford law review is not peer-reviewed. Most law reviews aren't, which is of some concern when they are used to disseminate findings based on statistical analysis.</p>
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[quote]
I've always read that this trend came from the ever-increasing costs of higher education. Many idealistic young lawyers are faced with the reality that service careers won't pay the bills.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And yet some of them make this choice regardless. What would be interesting to explore is why some do and some don't, and whether we should take "These grads make more money" with a grain of salt. It's like medical school--sure, everyone thinks it's great to hear that grads of Med school X make more money, but what if that higher salary simply means they're all avoiding family practice? Is this a "better" outcome? </p>
<p>That was my point: "higher salaries" doesn't always mean that graduates are better or better off, or that society is a better place. Yes, generally speaking, higher salaries at a particular institution can mean that students get recruited by better firms...but keep in mind that we're looking at a population which has been shown to be willing to take lower-paying but still-critically-important jobs outside of that realm. We can't know that these graduates are considered better by law firms--it might simply be that they are making different choices. </p>
<p>BAMN has proven themselves to be strident and (IMHO) disrespectful in their advocacy. I suspect they do more harm than good for the cause they claim to support.</p>
<p>Thanks for mentioning that Stanford Law Review is not peer reviewed. I did not know that.</p>
<p>I'll agree with you. Just having higher salaries does not necessarily mean that either the graduates or society is better off.</p>
<p>Having more graduates who earned higher grades during their education and passed the bar more comfortably, however, does mean that we can have better-off graduates and a better-off society. How? Race-neutral admissions.</p>
<p>I'll stop poking fun at BAMN; we've got common ground there.</p>
<p>Its good to hear that Universities have a way of avoiding the negative impact states have made by fighting affirmative action. I read several posts that said it's stereotyping but that isn't the case, it's taking into account the fact that a student was able to ignore socioeconomic factors that usually hinder the learning process and still achieve. It's placing an * on an applicants gpa that may be lower.</p>
<p>This might be the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen. If U-Mich wants to help socio-economic disadvataed students with low GPA's, THEN HOW ABOUT ASKING THEM IF THEY ARE POOR????? </p>
<p>This Discriptor Plus is nothing more than a way to stonewall the voters of Michigan (who give their tax dollars to fund the school). The voters in Michigan (just like those in the ultra-liberal state of California) have made it quite clear that they don't want racist adcoms to continue racial discrimination in college admissions.</p>