<p>c’mon guys – keep this discussion on topic. b@r!um has a right to her opinion, not to mention the fact that what she said isn’t exactly an unusual observation about American society.</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with patriotism - I just said it surprised me. Most Europeans were fiercely opposed to the recent wars and I didn’t quite expect Americans to be so supportive of them. Internationally, the wars were perceived to be in the personal interest of a few powerful people rather than motivated by humanitarian concerns. </p>
<p>I have never personally observed political propaganda as powerful as in the US (though I am well aware that Germany has its own experience with political propaganda).</p>
<p>How about the veterans from say… Vietnam or Irak? No holocaust there as far as I know.</p>
<p>My analysis of the veteran situation is that it is a deliberate reaction to the way Vietnam veterans were treated when they returned. They were spat on and called baby killers. In fact, they were sent by the powerful to fight a war that turned out to be unpopular. I think we as a country were so ashamed of ourselves for this reaction, that we vowed to treat veterans with respect.<br>
In fact a large number of Americans (maybe a majority, I’m not sure) think the Iraq War was wrong-- and that we aren’t doing any good in Afghanistan. It’s just that we’ve learned not to take it out on young kids-- many of whom would prefer to be attending college if they could afford it.</p>
<p>^^^^
b@r!um</p>
<p>You must be a terrible observationsit then. Very few Americans support the wars. Any public opinion poll supports that statement. But we support our troops. Huge difference. Again I think it’s a cultural thing. 60 years ago your country was committing genoicde, so it might not be something that the modern day german citizen is proud of. We are proud of our troops from 60 years ago who helped stop that. Simple as that. For that reason, I wouldn’t consider it as much of a cultural difference as I would consider it a historical difference.</p>
<p>With regards to the rest of Europe. Again going to have to disagree with you on this. They may not support the war in the middle east, but they support their troops.</p>
<p>
They don’t support the wars once they see the consequences. The opinion polls from the early stages of the conflict painted a very different picture. From an article published in March 2003:</p>
<p>
[USATODAY.com</a> - Poll: Most back war, but want U.N. support](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-16-poll-iraq_x.htm]USATODAY.com”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-16-poll-iraq_x.htm)</p>
<p>
Point taken. Though I am curious why so many young people decide to join the military in the first place. Selfless patriotism, expected glory, financial security? Do you think the public’s perception and treatment of soldiers and veterans has a big impact on a person’s decision whether or not to join the military?</p>
<p>I think for the most part we’ve come to an agreement. It seems your initial statement and your further explanation are misaligned. I agree with your explanation, not your initial statement. </p>
<p>Now to quickly go through your post. </p>
<p>You have to understand from an Americans perspective the type of anger we felt after 9/11. Thousands of innocent Americans died, families devistated, and livelyhoods ruined. This anger was directly taken out on the taliban, al-queada, and insert any other small militia/terrorist group, and unfortunately some innocent civilians were caught in the crossfire. My point is there was a lot of anger to start with. Thus creating high approval ratings for the war. Let me make an analogy. I’ll do my best for it to make sense:</p>
<p>Say your little sibling takes something from you. You get angry and immediately punch him. In the momement this seems like the right thing to do. Looking back on it, you realize there were other courses of action. This is the same principle.</p>
<p>“They don’t support the wars once they see the consequences.”
Disagree with this to some extent. Not worth going in-depth on this though since I think we are in agreement in most other areas.</p>
<p>"Though I am curious why so many young people decide to join the military in the first place. Selfless patriotism, expected glory, financial security? "</p>
<p>I think for the most part it is patriotism. Americans are proud of who they are and where they came from. Financial security? To some, yes. But this would usually be second or third on the list behind patriotism. But this is the case of any military. </p>
<p>" Do you think the public’s perception and treatment of soldiers and veterans has a big impact on a person’s decision whether or not to join the military?"
No. I say this because the public’s perception is so diverse. Some are very supportive, others not so much. Walk in a college campus and you’d likely see quite a few people opposed to those in uniform. Walk through a southern town, and you’ll have the entire town cheering for a man in uniform.</p>
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</p>
<p>I would say, all of the above. Many people who join the military, especially those who do so as front line soldiers, are from low income families (minorities, sometimes sons of illegal immigrants, poor whites especially from the south, etc.). Most of them are unemployed or precariously employed, don’t have a good education or health insurance, and, generally speaking, have little prospect of success in a competitive society like the US. The military for them is therefore a real opportunity of a stable and reliable career that they wouldn’t find elsewhere. Furthermore, propaganda and recruiting efforts glorify the war hero soldier, especially among disadvantaged young people.</p>
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<p>Just a technical remark: the German army generally speaking did not ordinarily kill Jews. The SS, which was not the regular army, did. </p>
<p>Modern-day Germans are very sensitive about the holocaust and the other crimes/atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. And, to be frank, I don’t know any other country as committed to atoning for its past as modern Germany has been over the past 60 years or so. Japan for example has never come even close (for example, never apologized for the war massacres in China and other Asian countries). </p>
<p>Going further back in history, the former slave trading nations never apologized for African slavery either. And, of course, I won’t even mention the genocide of native Americans.</p>
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<p>You are correct, it’s extremely offensive to an American audience. You can be against the wars, but being against the people who volunteer to put their life on the line in service to their country is what is offensive. Veterans SHOULD be treated like heroes not murderers. I was also against the Iraq war.</p>
<p>Adam0302’s post:
"Anything wrong with being prideful or patriotic? You seem to put it in a bad light?</p>
<p>I understand not wanting to be prideful about the German army killing 6 million jews + another 5 million…but if your country actually saved people and made a difference in the world (not through a holocaust) wouldn’t you be prideful?"</p>
<p>+</p>
<p>Bruno123’s response:
"And, to be frank, I don’t know any other country as committed to atoning for its past as modern Germany has been over the past 60 years or so. Japan for example has never come even close (for example, never apologized for the war massacres in China and other Asian countries).</p>
<p>Going further back in history, the former slave trading nations never apologized for African slavery either. And, of course, I won’t even mention the genocide of native Americans."</p>
<p>==></p>
<p>Adam0302 just got pwned…</p>
<p>Americans have been atoning for both slavery and the slaughter of Native Americans with something called – affirmative action. We don’t call it ‘atonement’ or an ‘apology’ but that’s what it is, in essence. And if I were African American or Native American I would prefer the concrete and solid benefits of affirmative action than any verbal atonement. Talk is cheap, as they say.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t exactly call the €61.7 billion in reparations paid to the surviving victims “cheap talk”…</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,523846,00.html[/url]”>http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,523846,00.html</a></p>
<p>And speaking about wars, the gun-culture is amazing (or was for me at least).
The “Oh my god, run, it’s a gun” from Europe turns into “Oh my god, run, its sex”.</p>
<p>barum,
My post had nothing to do with Germany, rather with limnieng’s comment implying that the US hasn’t apologised for its crimes against humanity. </p>
<p>I think not just Israel, but most of Eastern and Western Europe made Germany pay – and pay, and pay and pay – for its WW2 war crimes. Not that I object – the Germans did horrific things. But since 1945 Germany’s also done a great deal of public atoning. I don’t think it’s been easy to have been a post-war German – at least in your parents’ generation.</p>
<p>This thread began as an opportunity to learn how foreign students see the US. Let’s try to listen and be less defensive. If you don’t want to hear, there are certainly a lot of other interesting CC threads to read.</p>
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</p>
<p>Good point, BLK616. This thread has gone way off topic, and it will have to be closed if it doesn’t veer back towards the original question.</p>
<p>Sally_Rubenstone:</p>
<p>If the purpose is to gather info. on what aspects foreign students may feel disoriented with in coming to the U.S., then I think the crux of the problem is an over-expectation of what the U.S. is or can provide.</p>
<p>Given the U.S.'s political status on the world stage, the “land of freedom, democracy and equality” image it markets, and the proliferation of Hollywood movies all over the world, many foreign students arrive at the U.S. with the expectation that most things would be much better here than back home, specifically in terms of equality, bureaucratic efficiency, true democracy etc. However, they will be deeply disappointed when they realized a lot of things are not better, and some may be even worse. Disappointment develops into disillusion when they are still continually surrounded by “lip-service” on how the U.S. is which is contradictory to what they see and/or how they’ve been treated. (related to my point earlier on).</p>
<p>So I echo Sefago’s comments, in that I think the best advice to give to international students is not to expect too much from the U.S. or the U.S. citizens they come into contact with.</p>
<p>Wow this thread has taken a negative turn! I kind of agree with limnieng though, that the US is so built up to foreign students that no matter how nice the country is, there is BOUND to be disappointment. But let’s talk of some of the other things that surprise us…</p>
<p>I was surprised how there were “Indian” restaurants in even the smallest towns, although the quality of those is a different story</p>
<p>Also surprised by how frugally people live here, compared to some other countries I’ve seen</p>
<p>And I’m really new to this concept of children/teenagers working. It would not work in my country, because whole families are dependent on those minimum wage jobs which teenagers take to pay for their cars and it goes against the prevalent culture. Still, I think it’s a very good idea.</p>
<p>As a former international student myself, I should say, your life in university as an international student is in a bubble. If you don’t have kids, you are not involved in local community’s activities. You don’t see the parents with their kids at the soccer field, baseball field, football field every weekend. Your community in college is a special kind. It mostly are made of other international students and American students. If you want to really know what’s going on, you need to get out of the university and go to nearby local parks such as little league parks on Saturday to meet regular folks.</p>