New York Times - Drinking to Blackout

Parents Forum
61

@Hanna I am not a big proponent of teen drinking either. I worry about brain development - and car accidents. I do, however, see college administrators, law enforcement, parents, and college kids jumping through hoops over illegal drinking issues on and off campuses. When it was legal at age 18, this did not seem to be as big of a problem. We drank and had fun, and no one made a big deal about it. We usually walked to and from the parties. Have kids changed? There was always drinking. Now it’s illegal, but the college kids still do it, and it seems to be a bigger problem? As this thread questions, are the kids binging more now? Certainly hard drugs seem on the rise too. What is going on?

I think the MADD focus on drinking and driving DUIs has made a big difference in society. I am all for slamming drunk drivers. Thankfully, many college kids don’t have cars, at least freshman year…They seem to know about the concept of designated drivers, and the advent of Uber and its competitors was welcome.

Because we are a military family, friends and I have often questioned how a young person can be sent to Iraq at age 18 and lose a limb from a bomb in battle, but he (or she) can’t have a beer legally. Yet, his 21-year-old peer partying in college can. When is an adult really an adult?

62

“There are data showing that the 21 drinking age has had a strong impact, particularly on drinking under the age of 18 (since HS seniors can’t buy for their friends). There are plenty of good arguments for a lower or varied drinking age, but there is compelling evidence that the higher age reduced accidental deaths for young people.”

I was a HS student in the late 70s and early 80s when 18 was the legal age. So I do recall how frequent the fatal Saturday night teen car crash was back in those days. Seemed like there was one a year at my high school. But for the grace of god, I could have been in one of them.

But as we all know, correlation and causation are not the same. Canada achieved the same drunk driving harm reduction as the U.S. did while maintaining their 18/19 legal drinking age. I suspect a lowered drinking age in the U.S. at this point would not return teen drunk driving to the levels of 30 years ago. Attitudes on DD have changed dramatically in three decades. My kids have done their fair share of underage illegal drinking but they would never drive in the kinds of circumstances that me and my HS peers often did back in the day. Once they became legal drinkers, they still act the same way as relates to DD.

Also, kids away at college don’t have to drive much as compared to HS kids (especially now with Lyft, Uber). If I were a college president (absent a lowered legal drinking age which does not seem in the cards) I’d do what Stanford, Dartmouth, Notre Dame etc. are doing. Ban and enforce against hard alcohol like it was a true illegal substance (like cocaine). Plus zero tolerance for drunk driving. But wink wink don’t sweat it if my students want to have some “illegal” beer or wine as part of their college experience.

63

When people use the phrase “We did X and we survived just fine” it’s as if they think their personal life experience should be the guidepost for humanity. We never wore seat belts when I was a kid and we survived just fine. Cars produced a lot more air pollution when I was a kid and we survived just fine. It’s not an argument. Most likely, the reason things have changed since then is that not everyone survived just fine. In fact, lots of people did not.

There are plenty of reasonable arguments regarding what legal drinking age should be, or even if it should be split as it is in some countries. “We survived when it was 18” is not one of them.

64

The issue is not what college presidents would do with a drinking age of 18. It’s what high school principals and local community police would do with a drinking age of 18. It’s naive to say that the 21-year-old drinking age has no influence on high school drinking, none at all, not one bit, and that there would be no more high schoolers drinking, or drinking and driving, if the age were reduced. The legal drinking age has some influence. How much? How much more high school drinking would there be with a lower drinking age? How much more drinking and driving?

Recall that it is possible to have even more teenage binge drinking than we have now. Things could be worse, a lot more worse. Just cast an eye over the Atlantic at the UK, which has way more teenage (and pre-teenage) binge drinking than the US.

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" Cute that you think that. I find – like the author did – that top students are among the worst alcohol offenders. They often have the most they’d like to forget, like the 5 exams they had in a single week, on top of internships, and a work study, and research, and homework every day. I know people like this."

@CourtneyThurston I’m gonna call shenanigans on this one. Do I think that a few top students might drink heavily? Sure but my money is that tops students are doing things that got them to the top. They probably have different ways to relive stress other than blackout drinking? Really no way to quantify this. So I guess my response is “I don’t know people like this but I heard about some on a discussion board”?

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A lot of top students binge drink.

The research I’ve read says that students with worse GPAs are more likely to binge drink. On the other hand, some schools that we on CC think admit only top students-- Dartmouth and University of Virginia, for example-- have high binge drinking rates, so plenty of top students are binge drinking.

67

I’m’ with Northwesty on this one. Kids really have been indoctrinated into the no drinking and driving. I attribute this to the much tougher DUI and DWI laws (at least in our state). I don’t think “changing” the drinking age to 21 changed teen drinking habits one bit, except for making it more difficult to get the alcohol and then driving it underground. All 3 of mine drank in high school. I don’t know that I knew all the details that I know now about how much and how often and where they “did it” but now that they are older they “talk about” it more. My husband and I each knew someone who died from drunk driving. No one at my kids school died from drunk driving in ten years. But their high school drinking habits sure mirrored my husband’s high school drinking habits from the 70s. There is always someone old enough to buy for teens or frankly they steal it from their parents. Lots of parties deep in the woods, out on boats, and other places parents and cops would not find them. And then there are the parents who just let it happen…in their homes. Michigan is currently considering “lessening” the now very serious consequences of an MIP.

I imagine high school principals and administrators “deal with” drinking just like they did when we were in school. If you are an athlete or cheerleader and you get caught or get an MIP you are off the team. If you have alcohol on you on school grounds you are punished. I’m not exactly sure what would be different for high schools now than in the 70s.

I’ve already said, that legalizing beer and wine on college campuses gives college a ton more leeway to return to campus bars, to return to social activities with alcohol…all sorts of things that just seem like common sense to me and allow for easier oversight. Not to mention it would slow down the use of fake IDs significantly and hopefully all the furtive pre-gaming and pre-partying that was not part of my history. My oldest son often bemused that life would have been much easier and simpler and safer if their college union bar hadn’t been turned into a coffee shop and alcohol driven off campus.

68

While students who binge drink at respectable/elite colleges may have been “top students” in high school, it’s very unlikely the vast majority who binge drink remain so once they start receiving their first grades from college Profs for academic work completed/not completed in undergrad.

In short, while most students at elite/respectable colleges may have been “top students” in the high school context, most are unlikely to remain so once they’re in college…especially if they binge on drugs and/or alcohol.

69

I’m seeing a lot of “likely”, “unlikely”, “probably” here.

70

And so you should.

If someone tells you that all students who binge drink have low GPAs, you can safely ignore anything else that person says because they are a fool. If, on the other hand, someone tells you that a student who binge drinks is more likely to have a low GPA than a student who doesn’t binge drink, well, that’s at least plausible, and I’ve read studies that state it’s true.

71

Age of majority = 18 means drinking age should be 18.
Very Severe penalties for:
Drunk driving (all ages)
Public intoxication
Destruction of property
Providing alcohol to minors.
End of story.
Let college kids have beer, just like most other countries. When they cause trouble lock them up.

72

“The writer generalizes to all small LACs. I don’t recognize this behavior in the handful of small LACs that I know fairly well. Not to say that there isn’t alcohol, but not like this. Not even close.”

Agree with @Dustyfeathers, Centre College (according to her Linkedin…) might not be representative of all LAC’s, on this list it ranks top 10 on greek life:

http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/greek-life/

73

Hey, I’m a current undergrad. I party at least once a week and almost always drink at these. But I go to a notoriously “work hard, play hard” university. Nonetheless, I know if my parents were worried sick about this, I would want to assuage those worries. So, I will give all you college parents my two cents on the topic.

I drink a lot, yes. Most all of my friends do too. But, I most certainly never go overboard. I know my limits. I never come close to blacking out. I’m smart enough to know this is very dangerous. The same can be said of my friends. There are certainly those kids who don’t know their limits and go overboard; every week there are a handful of people who end up hospitalized or needing medical treatment (i.e. stomach pumping, alcohol poisoning, etc.). I’ve personally known some of them. Of the people I know who’ve gone overboard, they were just genuinely caught up in the partying culture and, in my opinion, weren’t realizing how potent alcohol can be. But these same people also swore off alcohol for the near future, having learned their lesson. And this lesson was a pretty harsh one, because on top of the experience, they got stamped with a $2.5K medical bill.

Furthermore, yes, most students drink to find some modicum of relief in the stress they face from their week of school and clubs; in addition to maintaining a social life and in keeping up with the high level of ambition we all have, this is 1000% overwhelming. So we go out, and we have a good time, and we “dance the night away” to let loose and have fun. Basically, it’s like a detox to our system. It just relieves so much of the stress that had been tightening us up. I was severely depressed when I was in middle school and high school, until I get treated in my senior year of high school. And honestly, if I didn’t have this system of partying in school, I would be very depressed again right now, or I may have honestly committed suicide. That’s just me. Even with my antidepressants and my therapist, both of which I take regularly, I don’t think I could live without partying. At least, not happily. There were times when I was just so busy that I knew I couldn’t afford to go out one night and party–I had too much work to do. These extended periods of time where I didn’t go out were the worst; I could feel myself getting more depressed and becoming distant from reality; I could feel myself getting sucked into a reclusive depression. If I didn’t party, this would have only worsened, and I might have just ended my life because I know it would have gotten to a point where my mental state was that shot. I’m very intra-personally intelligent, and I know that I need to have this so-called “blackout culture”. That’s just me personally.

As for the culture itself, I wouldn’t call it a “blackout” culture. That seems very extreme. It’s simply an “alcohol” culture, which really isn’t bad if you know how to control yourself. Blackouts result from people who may fit into one of six categories: (1) they are depressed and are crying for help/wanting to end their pain/life, (2) they are irresponsible and/or are drowning in a cycle of repeated mistakes and never learning from the last time (people who are simply not meant to drink alcohol, ever), (3) the kid who drank alcohol for the first time at a hyped up party, got overly excited, then passed out because he couldn’t handle himself and went overboard while trying too hard to fit in, (4) people surround themselves by a parasitic group of friends who encourage and/or peer-pressure each other to drink till they’re basically dead, (5) people who try too hard to fit in and find their niche in college, aka people who are insecure with themselves and where they stand in society on campus, (6) kids who just had a way too stressful week and wanted to drink shot after shot to forget and let go until they were blacked out (like they actually wanted to pass out to get some rest or something). If you kid falls into one of these categories, I would highly recommend having a talk with them. No matter how close or far apart your relationship is, alcohol is a very serious substance and should never be taken lightly. Don’t try to control your kid and tell them they can’t drink, obviously. But do check up with them to make sure they have the right attitude about handling the alcohol culture.

Obviously, I can’t speak for everyone. But these were just my views. I hope I offered some clarification and peace of mind.

74

As for the drinking and driving issue, sadly so many kids actively drink and drive. They know they do, and they do it anyways because they just don’t care. “Eh, it’s whatever”. “Let’s risk it” “It’ll be fine, what are the chances” “That won’t happen”

I can only attribute it to one of two causes: (1) extreme self-absorption (I think it’s extremely selfish, if nothing else, to drink and drive), or (2) wanting to be cool and fun, not the boring one who “kills everyone’s vibe”

As for #2, I’d say this mostly comes down to wanting too much to fit into a group that’s not good for them. Psychologically, it’s a group effect thing.

75

@heywhatisdown, just to clarify, we’re using “blackout” here to describing the level of drunkenness where the next morning, the person has no memory, or impaired memory, of the events of the night before. Are you saying that you and your drinking friends do not experience this? Most people who experience alcoholic blackout don’t become unconscious and don’t go to the emergency room.

It’s confusing, because “blackout” is used for this kind of amnesia, and also for loss of consciousness. But we here are using it in the amnesia sense.

76

“I don’t think I could live without partying. At least, not happily.”

This is a hallmark of the path to alcoholism. I hope you say this to your therapist, in these words.

No peace of mind here. I’m worried about you.

77

Medically, this is not accurate.

Many people who blackout also go unconscious - these are two different states and they are not mutually exclusive and no way to tell the difference between deep sleep and unconscious by looking. Blacked out people go unconscious, but it often mimics falling asleep rather quickly.

For most people, “falling unconscious” is seen as a stark physical transition that is visible, i.e, people say that a person fell unconscious - but someone has to see this happen to label it "falling unconscious."If a tree falls in the forest, does still make a sound? Same thing happening here. Unconscious is actually a cognitive state, which leads to loss of physical control, that can be entered either quickly or slowly and from other physical states.

Unconscious cannot be accurately determined by looking at person physically unless they essentially faint in front of a witness and then one tests for unconsciousness. Thus, many “sleeping” alcoholics and people who experienced blackout go unconscious (loss of cognitive senses leading to loss of physical control), but since no one is trying to wake them up, no one ever notices. Most people who go unconscious from alcohol simply sleep it off and wake up with a serious hangover, including people who had blackout before going unconscious.

And how do we know that many people drinking go unconscious and unnoticed? Because a portion of them never wake up. No one even tries to wake them up because they look like they are sleeping and they either die of alcohol poisoning or they suffer some other serious physical side effect that people notice only after they do not wake up after a long time.

78

@awcntdb,

Let’s agree on terms. A person who is “blacked out” because of alcohol is still awake and interacting, but is no longer forming long term memories. The next morning when you ask them what happened, they won’t remember, or they’ll have impaired memory. A person who is normally asleep can be awoken. A person who is unconscious can’t be roused when someone tries to wake them; they might have fallen asleep naturally, or they might have just fallen unconscious directly, but in any case, while they are unconscious they can’t be awoken. You agree with this, right?

OK. I said that most people who experience alcoholic blackout then don’t go on to being unconscious. And you say that’s medically inaccurate. So you think that most (more than 50%) of people who experience alcoholic blackout then go on to be unconscious? That sounds high to me. I couldn’t find cites to support it (or to refute it), but it sounds high. And then also, it could be the case, probably is the case, that some drinkers who consume a lot of alcohol fall asleep more or less naturally and but then go through a period of unconsciousness, but nobody including themselves knows they are unconscious, so they would deny ever having been unconscious.

I’m trying to understand what @heywhatisdown is denying. Are they saying that they, and their friends, never experience alcoholic blackout as we define it? Given the drinking behavior heywhatisdown is describing, that seems improbable. Drinking a lot of alcohol fast is more likely to lead to blacking out than drinking the same or more over a longer period, and it sounds like fast, heavy drinking is what heywhatisdown and their friends indulge in.

Are they denying that they have ever fallen asleep and then lapsed into unconsciousness? Hard to deny that-- how would they know, unless someone had happened to try to wake them and failed. I suspect that @heywhatisdown is saying that no one in their friend group has ever toppled over unconscious while drinking, but that’s not what we mean when we talk about drinking to blackout.

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Thanks, @“Cardinal Fang”. And even if @heywhatisdown’s friends don’t drink to quite the level that fulfills whatever definition of blackout you’d like to use, it hardly seems like they would be responsible for their behavior for themselves or others. Something’s gotta give if they need to go blotto every weekend.

80

I am not going to go into the statistics with you, but the deduction is rather straight forward and is used in science al the time.

Basically, you cannot make the claim that most blackout people do not go on become unconscious UNLESS you actually test them for it by trying to wake them up. What you state is just an opinion.

However, statistically, if one looks at the pool of people who blackout and the pool of people who also are prone to go unconscious while drinking, one finds many of the same people in the two pools, as these conditions, which are different, are BOTH brought on by alcohol and can easily exist at the same time. The different states (blackout and unconscious) are only dependent on how much/how fast someone drinks at the time. So to state that most people who blackout do not go unconscious just makes no sense, as many are already prone to both conditions.

It is this same type of statistical analysis that also allows us to know that some 15 - 20% of women who are not on birth control get pregnant throughout the year, but never even know it, because of spontaneous abortions that go unnoticed. That number comes from analyzing actual pregnancies, actual known spontaneous abortions, and actual spontaneous abortions after a ultrasound pregnancy confirmation via ultrasound. Analyzing the graphical continuum and statistically deducing the number of women who must have gotten pregnant annually and never know it can be done because women who become pregnant and have spontaneous abortions are part of the same pool of women who get pregnant and have a child.

My only point is that there is no basis for you to make the statement. However, given that blackout and unconscious are part of the same cause (ingestion of alcohol) and are also part of a physical deterioration caused by alcohol, the statistical chances that both do exist at the same time is very high.

(The major issue I see here is the use of unconscious, as a longterm, visible event. Most unconscious events are not longterm and many go unnoticed and never get medically reported as such. Ever seen that drunk sleeping on the couch at the frat party? There are a portion of those people who are actually truly unconscious. However, you see them walking around 30 minutes later. All unnoticed because people laugh that Johnny passed out and no one tries to wake him, but if one tried, it would have been impossible.)