Drinking and Depression?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Rochester
1

<p>When I shared that my DS is interested in U of Rochester, a friend told me that they know 3 kids well who have attended within the past 4 years. One kid was pulled out by his parents as a junior because he becoming very depressed, another graduated but is a raging alcoholic now, and the third is taking a year off before transferring after experiencing mental health issues as a freshman. The parents of these 3 kids say it's a scary place with lots of drinking, especially in the winter. Now, obviously this is a sample of just 3 and there are thousands of kids who have been happy and successful there, but it does give us pause. </p>

<p>I'm hoping folks here can offer some reassurance that my friend just happens to have experienced a bizarrely skewed sample set.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>I have no idea how to respond to this. It’s the complete opposite of my kid’s and her friends’ experiences. It isn’t a scary place. She isn’t around a lot of drinking. If anything, the school is full of kids who work a lot, where people are in the library on Sunday. And my kid is an RA and knows the other RA’s, which means she is forced to deal with all sorts of dorm violations, from parties to illegal appliances. I don’t see it.</p>

<p>Assuming what your friend said is true and isn’t exaggeration or a mixing together of stories made more vivid by the device we all use of making the people sound closer to us than they really are, then your friend knows some screwed up families. But it doesn’t sit well with me. For example, a kid in his 20’s is a “raging alcoholic”. Yes, that certainly happens but is that something known outside that kid’s actual family - and then how much is that passed around? - or is it gossip turned into a story where actual knowledge is implied. I’m sorry but it sounds like the stuff people say without knowing as much as they claim and which is often incredibly false. You don’t say how well you know this friend. Maybe this person loves to spread sunshine. </p>

<p>Again, it bothers me that someone would say stuff like this. I have no idea what mental health issues as a freshman means other than that this poor kid, if the kid is real, has issues. It’s that weird guilt by association which marks the worst kind of gossip. It makes me think of the whispered “you know, don’t you …?” kind of speaking. </p>

<p>I suspect your friend more than the “bizarrely skewed sample set.” If you have any real issues with those subjects, I suggest you ask your friend for names so you can make your own evaluation.</p>

3

<p>Well, if one is predisposed to SAD, Rochester will be place one will develop it. Winter days are very short and due to the proximity the Lake Ontario skies are more or less continually overcast from mid-fall thru early summer.</p>

<p>D2 (from the Sunny Southwest with an average of 280 sunny days per year) found the adjustment more difficult than she anticipated. She said that a number of students sought treatment for SAD at Student Health and there are full spectrum lights available for therapeutic use by appointment.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>As for the issues with depression. Depression and other mental illnesses typically first manifest in young adults around this age. Depression may have been present earlier (post puberty which is when there is huge spike in depression onset) but was minimized or unnoticed within the more structured and supportive environment of the home. </p>

<p>The stress of being away from home and on their own for the first time in an unfamiliar environment can trigger underlying mental health issues in even previously [apparently] healthy young adults.</p>

<p>(One of D2’s roommates left UR due to mental health issues. She developed depression and PTSD due to some unresolved issues from high school. College merely allowed the issues to surface.)</p>

<p>Let’s also consider that the brains of young adults do not fully mature until some time in their middle 20’s (25-28). The pre-frontal cortex (emotional self-regulation, risk-taking, judgment, planning, problem-solving) is still undergoing dramatic changes (pruning and myelinization) in 18-22 year olds. These changes dramatically increases the odds of developing a mental illness.</p>

<p>I also believe that a great many kids go off to college with extremely unrealisitic expectations of what college is going to be like (“Best years of your life”“Find your soul mate” “Meet your best and truest lifelong friends”) and no clear long-term goals (or unrealistic long-term goals). When college inevitably disappoints, young people often lack the life experience and resilience to know how to effectively with the let down. They are also reluctant to seek counseling for this.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>Drinking on campus. Yes, there is drinking on campus. A good deal among some some subgroups of students. Yes, my kid indulged in excessive drinking on occasion during her time on campus. </p>

<p>Is there more at UR than at some other schools? Probably not, but there’s no source for an objective comparison of numbers. </p>

<p>I attended a college in rural area, another in small city (about the same size as Rochester) and grad school at a Big Ten campus. There was substantial drinking among some student populations in all 3 settings. I know students from all 3 schools who went on to develop alcohol and/or other substance abuse issues. But at the same time, the vast majority of the individuals I know didn’t.</p>

<p>Addiction is a mental health issue that is poorly understood. Genetics seem to play a role as well environment and opportunity. Alcohol abuse is often a symptom of underlying and untreated depression.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>TL;DR</p>

<p>The plural of anecdote is not data. Your data sample is tiny and likely skewed.</p>

4

<p>I posted this a week or two ago but my son’s best friend was in town a couple of weeks back with her BF-they both go to UR and they both are very happy-the girl looks great and her spirits were great and the young man was a nice guy who also seemed really well grounded.</p>

<p>I know that is a small sample size but it contradicts what you have been told-I don’t think UR has any unusual problems in this area-I think any school is going to have it’s share of these issues. Based on his friendship with her and how close they are I feel really good about UR and think if my son had ended up there he would have been happy-no way to know for sure but I would have no concerns above the ones I would have at any other school.</p>

5

<p>Part of my response really meant that I don’t see UR admitting a lot of kids with problems. No more than any other school. And by that I mean literally any other school. I went to an Ivy school. Lots of nutty people. I went to a top 5 law school. Lots of nutty people. (Probably including me in both cases.) </p>

<p>My other emphasis is I don’t consider gossip to be anecdote. Anecdotal evidence is evidence; even if it can be extrapolated meaningfully, you can build on that to develop ideas and test them. But anecdote that can’t be trusted is not evidence; unreliable gossip can’t form the basis of further investigation (unless you’re testing attitudes as described by gossip, etc.). </p>

<p>One of my favorite nutty anecdotes is from MIT. Some of my friends were visiting friends and they were in a TV room and when someone tried to change the station this kid grabbed hold of the TV to assert ownership. Sounds weird, doesn’t it: wrapping your arms around the TV because you lack social skills and can’t argue about the right station. But thing is: it probably isn’t true. It fits the story line of what we believed should happen at MIT. Every time I’ve actually been there, which is in the thousands of times, all I see are ordinary kids who work hard because they have hard work to do (and some who don’t work so hard).</p>

<p>Lot’s of things happen when you get sufficient numbers. I know of a kid at UR who had to take time off because of a stroke. Someone could take that and put it in a story to make it supposedly mean something more than that this happened. This at least actually did happen - and the kid is fine. But we make stories of what actually happens and invent stories to fit what we think might happen. Reality is usually far more mundane.</p>

6

<p>^^RE: the MIT TV story. Not at MIT, but something nearly identical did happen at DH’s undergrad. He personally witnessed it. He knew the individual who did it. The individual was being deliberately and outrageously provocative just to see what would happen. The individual all the way thru college repeatedly engaged in what today might be called “performance art” because the person was interested in pushing boundaries and seeing how people reacted when confronted with non-normative behaviors.</p>

7

<p>Here’s another way of looking at it. Why should colleges, even elite colleges, be immune from the statistical truths in the rest of the world? A certain % are going to suffer from some type of mental illness or serious emotional difficulty. [I actually think the term ‘mental illness’ gets used too easily just as “Bipolar” has become the new “ADHD” and often what gets diagnosed as Bipolar bears hardly any resemblance to a clinically Bipolar illness…not to mention that some of the leading facilities and psychiatrists in the country are responsible for this over- or mis-diagnosis.] And as WOWM indicated, the colleges years (18ish to 22ish) are prime years for the emergence of a mental disorder, including schizophrenia.</p>

8

<p>Yes, obviously every school will have kids who have mental health issues that show up during the college years, since that is when a lot of issues first turn up. I just thought it was weird that my friend (whom I trust to report reliably) knew so many people who happened to have had poor experiences. Her kid took U of R off her list because of it. </p>

<p>I don’t know the families of the kids involved because I know this mom through a different circle of friends. Both they and we are from places that have long dark winters as well, so it’s not necessarily the winter that was the trigger for these kids, though maybe being around kinds from sunny places who are missing the sun more than they expected could lead to a more “down” attitude on campus during the winter. </p>

<p>I don’t know if there’s really any way to get statistics on how many kids at a given school have to take a medical leave for mental health reasons. Presumably that’s all very privacy-protected. It could be a good thing to know in general whether some schools have more issues than others, either due to weather, other situational issues, or poor handling of kids who need help with a minor issue before it becomes crippling. I obviously don’t want to try to make those kinds of determinations based on a handful of anecdotes.</p>

<p>We haven’t visited yet. I know a number of families whose kids visited and loved it, but didn’t end up attending, so I don’t know anyone personally whose kids are attending to give me the flip side.</p>

9

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<p>I fully agree with this. There are students who choose to drink at all colleges (even dry colleges) and some of those will take it to excess. We always hope our offspring aren’t in that group, but in the end, they decide for themselves just as we did at their age. (It’s not all “college” either as there are plenty who don’t attend college who also go off the drinking deep end.)</p>

<p>My middle son is currently a freshman at UR and really enjoying himself - working hard at academics, at his work study job, and enjoying time in a couple of clubs + just some “free” time). He has a group of friends who choose not to drink at all (not based on religious reasons or similar) and some who drink a little bit. They know some who drink far more, but their paths only cross at times. He has never felt pressured to drink or get high. He loves where he chose to go and has no regrets. </p>

<p>My personal opinion is that those students who are going to choose to drink excessively will do it regardless of where they go to college. I’ve worked at our high school long enough to see that happen in real life.</p>

<p>There is plenty to do at UR that doesn’t include drinking - students just have to choose their paths.</p>

<p>There’s absolutely no way I would cross a school off my list due to another student (or three) and their choices. Every school would get crossed off if you had access to the “right” students. There is no school that can guarantee a sheltered life and those that try often have their own issues.</p>

10

<p>In terms of schools with issues, my alma mater Yale was profiled in a big story - again - because of sexual assaults. Not by outsiders, meaning street crime, but by students (and some faculty). So clearly Yale admits a lot of sexual predators. </p>

<p>See my point? It’s not true. The story is true - and I doubt that the anecdotes related are - but the conclusion doesn’t follow.</p>

11

<p>I’m sure there ARE schools that have higher incidences of student-on-student sexual assault than most. This may be due to an atmosphere where women are not respected, where education about date rape is not sufficient, or perhaps where lots of kids are admitted from those types of atmospheres. Yale may or may not be one of those schools – you can’t tell from a few anecdotes. But, if there were a way to figure it out, it would certainly be useful to know.</p>

<p>Similarly I’m sure there ARE schools where depression is a bigger concern than others. Maybe due to factors like intolerance, competitiveness of the student body or even weather. </p>

<p>The atmosphere of a school can contribute to certain difficulties, so the question, when you hear about a cluster of kids with difficulties, is whether there are environmental factors that contribute to those difficulties, or whether you’re just looking at random incidents that could (and do) happen anywhere. But I think it’s irresponsible not to try to figure out whether there’s some pattern where a certain environment may be toxic to a certain subset of students. I probably shouldn’t have put this post in the Rochester forum, because it’s really a larger question that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with UR, which is how can you tell in advance if a particular school is going to be a healthy environment for a particular kid.</p>

12

<p>One thing is for sure. If you talk to a sample of folks from any school where things have not gone well, you are going to hear a negative take on that school. I think it is more a general question and I agree an important one for each family to try and figure out in the fit/match search, but you started here with specifics about UR. I have read a ton about UR, including every guidebook and every student review I could find, and I haven’t seen anything to give me any concern about UR. That said, if I knew my kid had to have sunlight, then UR might not be at the top of our list.</p>

<p>On another note, sexual assault can be a problem and more so at some schools than others, and school prestige does not provide some innoculation. Amherst College has been blasted in the past year for how it has handled a couple of sexual assault situations.</p>

13

<p>I just posed the more generic question (without mentioning UR) on the parents’ forum. Hopefully it will lead to some good discussion about finding a good/safe/healthy fit for each student.</p>

14

<p>I would hazard a few guesses, because that is all we can do.</p>

<p>First, I’d bet the schools with the most athlete and frat/sorority culture have the most drinking. Athletes are pampered at many schools and act entitled to the point where numerous schools have been found covering up assaults by players (on girls and in general) and fights and larceny. I know of a few football programs where they hid felony burglaries. But most of those schools are also large so it’s possible to have an experience which completely avoids all that. And some are excellent academic schools. I can’t generalize to how a kid at a big time athletic / frat school will do or fit because we may be talking 20 to 30k plus students.</p>

<p>I would say the most stressful schools may also be the hardest academically. I don’t know if that’s bad or good. And if there’s a relationship between intelligence and maturity, I don’t see it so more stress may simply be more harmful for some. Again, depends on the kid more than the place. </p>

<p>In terms of safety, it’s possible to get crime reports for more and more locations now. I get them for Rochester. They can be misleading though interesting. For Rochester, they show a dangerous area is near downtown on the other side of the river - about 2-3 miles away - and the most dangerous area is way on the other side of downtown to the northwest. I can’t imagine anyone going there unless it’s for some social service organization. You can check those things for many places. But I have to say they reveal some interesting things: you realize safety is often a matter of opinion and image more than reality. Many schools have a fair amount of crime and bigger ones often have more simply because the community is so much larger and that means more people flowing through in and around. I would bet a stranger would be noticed near Rush Rhees Library at UR but strangers can walk into buildings on many campuses without being noticed because so many go through. I’m not saying Wayne State in Detroit is a particularly safe place, because it can’t be given where it is, but that it’s hard to gauge objectively and really hard when you have to think about how your particular kid acts. My kids grew up in the city so I trust they can navigate safely. Other kids have personal security failings, either because they’re careless about it or aren’t comfortable in certain environments.</p>

<p>My point about Yale, btw, is I suspect Yale women are more empowered than at other schools and that accounts for more reporting. My guess is there aren’t more sexual assaults there, but that a higher percentage are reported because the culture allows that. Consider an alternative: a woman at Duke is being threatened with expulsion because she spoke out about her sexual assault. Since the assault is in the school discipline system, she’s being punished for speaking about it - and by the student honor code council, whatever it is. That can’t help but create an environment in which reporting assault is, to the say the least, discouraged. So right now I couldn’t recommend Duke to a young woman. Not until they pull their heads out of their you know whats.</p>

15

<p>Anecdotally - my son is a non drinker/partier and is surprised at how much drinking/drugs go on at the school. Imo - weekend drinking is not surprising in me to the least. He’s learned who not to take baked goods from on the hall - lol. He doesn’t get that at many schools, it’s a 24/7 culture. He says kids think it’s just a nerd school, but it isn’t, there is way more partying going on than he was led to believe. He grew up in a rural area with like minded eclectic friends, and didn’t hang out with people who drank or did drugs at all. So when you’re on a dorm floor you don’t have a choice on what other people choose to do. </p>

<p>However, not a single kid he knows or lives with has had to leave the school for substance abuse or mental health issues. </p>

<p>He is also more engaged and thriving and learning to accept differences at a level I never dreamed of before he went to school. He also has plenty of friends, some drink, some don’t, and he’s as happy as he’s ever been.</p>

16

<p>About physical campus safety, we were struck at one school by the much more comprehensive safety protocols for the dorms at one of the schools we visited than any of the others. Although the policies and protocols were reassuring, I have to admit that their existence raised the question as to why they were needed…</p>

<p>As far as drinking and other substance abuse, some kids have an easier time saying “no thanks” than others. My DS11 is at a school where drinking was rampant 7 days a week in the freshman dorms, but he’s quite content to just ignore it and do his own thing, and has found plenty of like-minded friends, though that did take some time. Other kids might either feel the need to “fit in” or just be more bothered by it going on around them all the time (noise and mess, etc.) even if they are comfortable not joining in. </p>

<p>It’s unclear to me what (if anything) the availability (or not) of “substance-free” housing says about the drinking and substance abuse culture of a given school.</p>

17

<p>I think you hit it with that post. When they make a big deal out of safety, they may not be addressing a real problem but are either addressing an image issue or are using this as a marketing hook. Same with substance free and blah, blah; they can be cheap ways to provide something that may appeal to parents and some kids though they likely have little value in reality.</p>