One frustration that I have with some of these programs is that perpetuates the false notion to many high school students , as well as their parents, that huge merit options at OOS publics are the norm and should somehow be expected. Rather than see these programs as an incentive, they come to expect them.
What always puzzles me is the posts are almost always about the engineering at UA… I would understand it if it was Georgia Tech because that’s mostly an engineering University., However DH works at a large corporation and a number of people he works with went to UA either in business or liberal arts and they are doing really well in corporate jobs. As a parent with a potential UA non STEM kid I wish there were more posts about majors other than engineering.
We visited the University of Kentucky a month or so ago. If NMSF comes through, my daughter can go there essentially for free (pay for books and possible upgrade to room and/or meal plan). We sat in an info session with Kentucky kids/parents asking questions about costs and aid. For some of them, it probably isn’t easy to afford even in-state tuition and may well be impossible. I am sure I would be frustrated sitting in their shoes seeing an out of state kid who could go there for free. I understand what the university is trying to do in terms of increasing the academic standing of the college. At the same time balancing the interests of in-state kids (though the in-state kids who graduate from UK will benefit from increased academic standing of the school).
At this point, the Kentucky legislature hasn’t yet set its budget for 2017 so its not clear if the NMSF scholarship will be offered going forward. If it is, UK is definitely on my daughter’s list. She wants to be a vet so debt for school makes no sense (like it does for a medical doctor). UK plan would mean 1-2 years of vet school would be paid for by what would otherwise go for undergrad tuition.
I can definitely see different views on this issue. Maybe state flagships should go for higher rankings and have other state schools available for other in-state kids with lower stats?
@CyclonesGrad I’m just curious. How is UIUC discouraging in-state students? Is there data that suggests Illinois kids need better test scores and grades to get into UIUC than OOS students? Looking at Naviance, our school’s students who are admitted have an average of 31 on the ACT and 5.1/5.0 GPA (weighted of course).
The article starts by asserting California schools increase revenue by recruiting full pay OOS students then shifts quickly to “geography blind” Alabama merit scholarships.
It encourages the reader to infer that paying merit money to high stats students is essentially the same as a surcharge for lower stats students.
That particular bit of juggling logic undercuts the main argument.
Alabama’s approach is fundamentally more like Germany’s than California’s.
Germany offers free tuition in order to get an influx of young, skilled professionals, the don’t recruit overseas to boost their ledgers.
@MichiganGeorgia, I think that likely reflects the fact that the majority of people who post about Bama on CC are the recipients of these large merit awards, which require relatively high stats, and as with much of CC in general, there is a focus on STEM majors because people believe (rightly or wrongly) that that’s where the future lies. It’s also true that, as with most universities, the highest stat students tend to be found in the engineering program. If it’s an ABET-accredited program, it’s going to be a rigorous, pre-professional major that is going to attract strong students and/or test takers, regardless of how competitive the rest of the university may be.
UA does have a lot of really good programs outside of engineering. Their philosophy and dance programs are topnotch, as are several majors in the Culverhouse College of Commerce (accounting and MIS among them); their nursing school has become extremely competitive for admissions; and their advertising & public relations program in the College of Communications and Information Science is top-rated too. I’m sure there are others I’m overlooking as well.
And you’re right, lots of Bama grads are very successful in the business world. Marillyn Hewson, chairman & CEO of Lockheed Martin, earned her bachelor’s in business administration and her master’s in economics from UA.
But I do think the university has made engineering and other STEM programs a major focus over the past decade. That’s where much of the building is taking place, their deans tend to be the ones making the admissions pitches at recruiting events around the country, and the new president is a former faculty member in the mechanical engineering department.
As the parent of an almost UA engineering student that went to the dark side, UA should also be cautious on overselling their scholarships as it can look a bit desperate to give so much away for (perceived) smarter students to increase rankings and begin selling the quality of their education and research. Having smart peers around you is a good thing but having smart professors, facilities, and research is better.
This was one small factor that swayed us from UA to UF . . . granted not that big a deal. Our son has grown up in Florida, loves Florida (and family here), and we didn’t see him settling in Alabama at some point (of course it could have happened and would have been fine).
We would have had no problem if he had gone to UA and we loved UA so much that it was a difficult decision.
IMHO, UA is very strategic with what they are doing and it will bring big returns in the years to come.
It’s just anecdotal, but my new-UA-grad DS and his friends are now living and working in Missouri, Maryland, New Jersey, Arizona, California, and Florida. As far as I know, besides some staying for masters, none of his friends from OOS stayed in Alabama.
@threeofthree, there’s a lot of speculation that UA will start to reduce the undergraduate scholarship inducements so they can focus more on strengthening and upgrading their graduate programs. I’m guessing they have a general plan in place for how to balance those priorities, which I imagine will be reevaluated each year so it can be adjusted if necessary.
https://www.ua.edu/strategicplan/
Bell’s predecessor, Robert Witt, successfully implemented much of the previous strategic plan that he helped craft, and Bell will head up this next stage. Here’s Witt’s “state of the university” speech from 2006: http://dialog.ua.edu/2006/11/president-witt-expands-on-his-vision-updates-uas-growth-plans-at-fall-meeting/.
I’ll leave it for others to judge how successful UA was in implementing their previous plans.
I could imagine that, too, @Chardo. It seems obvious that many UA grads go to other states to work and live.
I went to school far away from where I grew up in the south; the downside is that I don’t do anything with my alma mater.
@LucieTheLakie - Those goals and some PR work needs to be published in non-UA media. I can’t tell you the number of eye rolls seen in the north Atlanta suburb when students mention their UA scholarships - it absolutely doesn’t matter that they are paying to go to another school in state or out of state that often times is not as high ranking because the perception of UA is everyone applies and everyone gets free tuition. No one is talking about the quality of the education and that should not happen. Why isn’t UA pushing their successful law school and business school (grad, don’t know undergrad) rankings in Georgia - you beat UGA in both of those categories. As much money as Admissions puts into regional/national academic recruiting for high stats they also need to put money into some very targeted PR about the quality of education that’s offered - it’s a good school and even Auburn students know that.
@threeofthree - I don’t see the eye rolls on the south side of Atlanta…Most they just start talking about the football team.
@threeofthree, UA gets plenty of attention in non-Bama media, including the New York Times and Washington Post, so I wouldn’t fret too much about that. Is it all positive? No, but much of it is eye-opening to families who never would have considered ANY school in the Deep South in the past, and I have to guess has indirectly led to increased applications from all over the US.
As far as promoting the quality of education offered, the proof is in the numbers. Do you honestly think students would go to UA from the northeast, upper Midwest, or west coast if all it was offering was $$? The general HS recruiting event I attended with my son here in suburban Philadelphia (after he’d already been admitted, mind you) did nothing but stress the quality of the education being offered. No talk of scholarship money whatsoever.
UA has met (and exceeded to a great degree) their goals of increasing undergraduate enrollment and raising the academic quality of the student body. Sure a lot of folks are going to look down on them for their strategic use of merit money, but (let’s be honest), most of those people would look down on them regardless.
Re your neighbors in the northern Atlanta suburbs, I’m guessing, given the strong loyalties to UGA and Georgia Tech, UA is never going to win over certain folks in Atlanta. It’s similar to how even in Alabama folks with strong ties to Auburn are always going to look down on UA. Why waste your time trying to convince those who’ve already made up their minds when there are so many willing to take a closer look?
And I’m guessing UA’s Law School (which is tied for #28 in US News) isn’t lacking in applicants. That’s probably why luring Georgia residents isn’t a priority.
Regarding #2 paragraph - yes, I absolutely believe the $$$'s is what draws the out of state kids in addition to the intrigue (I was going to say romance but that’s not the correct word either) of a southern collegiate atmosphere. And I rarely read (if I’ve ever) about UA quality of education over merit money in the media. Regarding UGA and GT, many in state students are not getting admitted to those schools and would still get merit money at UA but chose to enroll elsewhere. My post was not meant to be contentious just giving another viewpoint.
Kinda negative:
It wasn’t all negative though, @4kidsdad. And that’s not the only article about Alabama in the past few years. This article from last fall certainly wasn’t overly negative. I thought it was pretty fair and balanced, and yet plenty of folks in the comments section heaped criticism on UA and accused the Times of acting like a wing of Bama’s PR department:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/07/sports/ncaafootball/alabama-crimson-tide-football-marketing.html.
@threeofthree, I didn’t think you were trying to be contentious. I just think you’re assuming that the perspective of someone in upper-middle-class Atlanta is representative of someone from another part of the country. I do agree, absolutely, that “the intrigue … of a southern collegiate atmosphere” attracts a lot of the FULL PAY students. But the scholarship students, who to a great degree had other affordable options at higher-ranked schools? I don’t think so. Yes, the money is key, but it has to represent a good VALUE–and the academics, academic facilities and academic and career opportunities are going to be a HUGE part of the equation. Nobody’s turning down a Stanford or Vanderbilt or Michigan or even a Penn State for Alabama if they think all it has to offer is a good football team and a fun atmosphere.
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you'll find schools like the UC's and UIUC (where qualified in-state students are rejected for OOS students) <<<
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@Gator88NE Do you have some published statistics showing UIUC is institutionally accepting LESS qualified OOS engineering students instead of MORE qualified IS students? What is your hook to UIUC that gives you so much insight from FL?
Again, UIUC does not have a single admissions standard. The UIUC College of Engineering has its own admissions standards vs other UIUC colleges and then students must apply to a specific engineering major (so there is another admissions standard for that major).
CS in COE, ECE, and ME are the most popular choices and CS in COE had about 4000 applications for under 400 slots. UIUC is not on the common app, so the UIUC application process is additionally self selecting as many applicants will not even apply to CS in COE as the standard is generally 35/36 ACT and significant programming background.
Those qualified IL students not accepted to their top two engineering major choices in COE are offered admissions to General Studies, so technically they are not rejected from UIUC, just not accepted into a highly competitive major in COE.
Additionally UIUC awarded over 2000 BS engineering degrees in 2015, which was the most of any school in the US. There is a formal community college pathways program that guarantees admission to UIUC engineering after successful completion.
http://pathways.engineering.illinois.edu/
So, what is your anecdotal example to prove your statement?
I always assumed that UA was doing sort of a brain drain in its direction, sort of like Germany is trying by offering free tuition to all. They know that many people will return to their home countries, but after an extended stay, it’s inevitable that many will stay in Germany. The same goes for UA. The NYT article wasn’t commenting on this issue for any schools in the article. Agreeing with @dfbdfb
While UAH is distinct and smaller, I suspect the large number of jobs - tech jobs - in Huntsville will result in decent retention.
What I don’t know is where the state of Alabama figures their break even point is - 20%, 10%, or ??
UAH published last year that about half the budget came from research and around 5% went to scholarships. I haven’t looked up UA’s numbers, but it strikes me that the absolute number is less important than how it fits in the planning.
I think they’re playing the long game.