New York Times: Public Colleges Chase Out-of-State Students, and Tuition

Right—not that everyone who goes to university in a particular state stays in that state, but that a disproportionate number of those who go to university in a particular state stay there. (Demonstrably so—there are people, largely economists, who study these sorts of migration phenomena in depth.)

Of course, as with most anything related to migration, you get clustering—it’s simply a commonplace in the social sciences that the friends of those who exhibit a particular behavior (including macro-level behaviors, like leaving or staying in a location) are more likely to exhibit that behavior themselves. Your observation matches this quite nicely.

@IlliniDad18 If you got the impression that I thought “better” qualified in-state students were being rejected for less qualified OOS students at UIUC, that’s my bad for not being clear. That’s a current item of discussion with the UC’s, but it wasn’t what I was referencing.

Instead, I meant that fewer slots where available for “qualified” in-state students (great in-state students get rejected from UIUC and the top UC’s, especially in engineering), as these schools recruit (and UIUC does recruit) OOS and International students (who also have great stats). One of the points, that the article attempted to make, was that in-state qualified students (in particular low income) were being squeezed out by OOS students.

And yes, I know UIUC is taking steps to increase in-state enrollment, and yes, I know this is mostly a college of engineering issue at UIUC, and yes, I know UIUC shares a huge amount of info on the number of students enrolled by major, by residency status…all of which is not relevant to my point. That being describing the growth of OOS/International enrollment at UA, UIUC and the UC’s as having a similar impact at all three schools (and on their state residents), isn’t a valid point.

By the way, I’ll do you the courtesy of not questioning your “insight” when discussion schools outside of Illinois, if you do me the same courtesy when I mention schools outside of Florida. We all adults, sharing opinions on an internet forum, it goes without saying that it should all be taken with a health sense of skepticism.

In Fall 1992, total undergrad enrollment at UC Berkeley was 21853. In Fall 2013, total undergrad enrollment at UC Berkeley was 25951. So, over the course of 21 years, just under 4100 seats opened to students, despite the continual growth of the state. When UC Berkeley favors out of state students for what are, essentially, the same number of slots as were available over two decades ago, that really does impact California students. These statistics are very similar for every UC campus. As a native Californian, now living in the south, the irony of my kids receiving brochures from UCLA, for example, was not missed. I knew that my son would have a much greater chance of getting into UC Berkeley had he applied, a significantly greater chance than I had back in the late 80s as I considered California schools as a native-born Californian. And there was only one reason for this: Cal would have wanted our money. That’s it. For a very brief moment, my 18-year-old high school self was tempted to encourage my son to apply - it brought back memories of my friends and I all considering applying to Berkeley, despite the long odds that existed back then. Then, I came to my senses and I knew I was not crazy enough to pay the $27K out of state tuition differential on top of regular tuition to a public university in my home state, not even to Berkeley, or UCLA, or any of them. Not to mention the outrageous cost of living out there, something I purposely escaped from years ago.

What bugged me the most about the NYT article is how superficial it is. To put UC Berkeley and the University of Alabama in the same boat when it comes to this question of in-state residents being robbed of their rightful slots at the state universities seems ridiculous to me. The circumstances do not warrant such a comparison, and it would not have taken much time to figure this out…

Alabama’s student enrollment has grown exponentially. In Fall 2006, there were 19470 undergrads enrolled. In Fall 2015, there were 29531. Over 10,000 slots have opened for additional students in just nine years. Amazing. Out of state students like my son are not taking seats away from in-state students, as is happening in California. Rather, they are taking new seats that have been created by Alabama’s aggressive, ambitious growth plans. Yes, my son is attending on a full tuition scholarship, but out of state tuition is only $14K more per year than in-state. An in-state student receiving the same scholarship as a freshman gets $10170 written off the bill, my son gets $26950 written off of his, so the university “spends” $14K to recruit students like my son. To offset that expense, students like my son live in Honors housing (I paid $17600K over the last two years, now ending as he moves off campus and a local landlord now gets the economic boost), and they buy the meal plans (I paid over $3K a year for two years, thankfully that is ending, but those dollars supported local jobs, and now his food dollars will go to the community even more directly.)

Without that scholarship, my son would not have headed to Tuscaloosa. No doubt about it. We could not have afforded Alabama without that scholarship. But, thanks to that scholarship, which was awarded based on academic merit rather than our adjusted gross income, he was able to get out of Florida, and gets to attend a great public university, and is pursuing his dreams without taking on crazy debt. In exchange, the University of Alabama is bringing in talented students from all over the country to attend school with the talented in-state students who were already attending.

As to whether enough recruitment is aimed at talented students attending Central High School, I have no idea. My son has worked on projects assisting the community, and he is well aware of struggles his clients face, and he has become quite aware about how government policy is often a great enemy interfering with his clients’ prosperity and pursuit of the American Dream, along with an unchallenged comfort with the status quo. What I do think is that the influx of out of state students may be a great help to Tuscaloosa in ways beyond the flow of money sparking all of the retail building. There is a lot of work to be done in Tuscaloosa - the extremes are too extreme, the poverty still too prevalent, some of the old ways that should have gone away a long time ago still exist. But with all of these new eyes and new points of view coming in to the area via the university, perhaps change will happen more quickly and benefit all of the residents of Tuscaloosa County. There’s potential for a lot of signifcant change all around, and this is where the University of Alabama’s “investment” in recruiting top students and luring them with scholarship money makes it worth it. Berkeley, despite its prestige and history, and as a repository of some of the greatest minds ever, has not been able to prevent or fix what goes on right outside its campus in Oakland, and beyond. There is a real crisis going on in the Bay Area, as income disparity accelerates to such a degree far beyond what it has ever been. Nothing has changed for the better in regards to this for decades now, and it is just getting worse.

As an outsider who appreciates some aspects of the unique culture of the south, I guess my only concern would be that, as more and more students from out of state arrive and don’t share some of the best of the traditional ways, some of the uniqueness of the university would disappear. Attending the University of Alabama should be at least a slightly different experience than attending a school out west, and I hope that out of state students take the time to get out into the community to discover what makes Tuscaloosa, and the state of Alabama, unique.

@chesterton, your post would make an EXCELLENT letter to the editor of the New York Times. Or at least a worthwhile comment (or two!) following the article. I hope you’ll consider submitting it.

Second the motion ^^ :slight_smile:

Thirding the motion.
That being said, while the instate students are not getting squeezed out (unlike what’s happening in IL or CA*) for places, they’re poorly treated financially speaking if they’re not among the top students admitted to the honors college. Indeed, Alabama and Arizona battle for the worst funding cuts to higher education. Need based aid is insufficient and low income students (Black or not) find it especially difficult.
Obviously, Ua still has a long way to go in terms of instate unaffordability compared to Penn State or uiuc.
Establishing ties between students at UA and students Central High school would be one element; making it affordable for them (as many are EFC zero) would matter more since admission without funding can be a cruel illusion.
Because the merit money doesn’t come from the same funds as the need based aid, the honors students aren’t directly affected, but perhaps students can figure out something (other than a protest :p) that’ll make ua affordable for lower income students.

  • it could be said that returning to pre-crisis appropriate per -student spending would go a long way to making these institutions less reliant on oos tuition dollars.

UA’s 25th to 75th percentile SAT and ACT scores are 1470-1860 (old test) and 22-30 respectively. Is it asking too much for someone to get an ACT of 22 for admission to a flagship state university? It’s not like UA is the only Alabama state college or university. If a student from Alabama doesn’t have the scores to get into UA, there are plenty of other choices in-state that will admit them. They’re not denied a college education, just not one at the flagship.

Actually, that 25th to 75th percentile ACT is 22-31. Not a huge difference, but if you compare it with other schools, it shows UA has just as many if not more of the very top students. But I completely agree with the rest of your post. UA needs to strengthen its admission standards, not water them down to “recruit” more students.

If you want to know why more Central High students are not applying to or being admitted to UA, look at that school’s average ACT score. If the avg. ACT/SAT of upper class Black people is lower than the average of even lower income Whites (see this article in the Journal of Black Higher Education) http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html) , then what do you think the gap is between lower to middle income Black students and the rest of the population? This is not politically correct, but it is the truth. We can debate what is behind that gap, but the gap must be acknowledged before progress can be made.

^ a summer bridge program - such as exists in other states - could be established so that the top students who worked hard and did the best with the cards they’d been dealt, but didn’t score high enough while being at the top of their class, can catch up. Such programs have been successful in NYS for instance but exist at many top colleges.

While I agree with your post, @NoVADad99, I think affordability is the other issue. Even if a low-income student (of any race) has the requisite stats, if he isn’t eligible for sufficient need-based aid, UA is off the table. Unfortunately, that’s how it is in most states, where there’s little appetite for funding any state universities, flagship or not.

@MYOS1634, UA does have a bridge program with Shelton State for students who didn’t quite make the cutoff as freshmen, and the Crimson EDGE program is for students with borderline stats who need more oversight/support.

They also offer scholarships to in-state transfer students through Alabama’s Promise and other programs:

http://scholarships.ua.edu/transfer/ala_promise.html
http://scholarships.ua.edu/transfer/

Not saying they’re perfect of fully adequate to address all the needs out there, but they’re not being ignored either. It’s hard to be “all things to all people.”

^ thanks LucietheLakie

" As far as I know, besides some staying for masters, none of his friends from OOS stayed in Alabama."

@chardo - And I think that could be said for any number of colleges. I doubt many graduates of University of Michigan stay in Michigan. Why? Well for one thing there aren’t many jobs in Michigan for college graduates.( I am using UofM as a example not because they give merit aid but because they do recruit a large number of OOS kids) Even if UA’s goal was for more kids to stay in Alabama after graduation… The jobs have to be able…

Mississippi is a slightly poorer and less populated version of Alabama, and one could say the same for their flagships. Neither school can raise admission standards as it will adversely affect black applicants. So the schools are doing other things to attract top students. Both schools give free tuition to entering freshmen with a 32 on the ACT and a set grade point. Ole Miss only requires a 3.0, with a 3.5 getting an extra $2,700 per year. As a practical matter the Ole Miss student is probably going to get a full ride, whereas the Alabama one is only going to get free tuition. Bringing in a lot of super-bright kids raises the academic quality of the university.

At Ole Miss, and I’m sure Alabama, the Texas 10 percent rule and the Georgia Hope Scholarship have played a big role, in that they have made UT and UGA very difficult to get into. Affluent students wanting the traditional college experience have little choice but to look out of state, and they pay a big premium to do so. These kids are not taking up spaces that otherwise would go to in-state students. They are subsidizing the tuition of in-state students.

@MichiganGeorgia I can’t speak for all of his friends, but my son and his roommate did have job offers in Alabama. The jobs are there, they just chose to work elsewhere.

Alabama has its share of auto and airline industries moving into state - engineers will likely find employment in Alabama if they want to stay.

Not sure about Mississippi -my Ole Miss grad husband said you had to move out of state to get a job. That could have changed 40 years later.

My son’s mechanical engineering co-op is in northwestern Alabama, about halfway between Tuscaloosa and Starkville. There seems to be a lot of crossing the border back and forth for schooling and work. The co-op students are from State and Bama, and the employees and bosses are from all over (Auburn, Bama, Mississippi State, and some northern states). The one thing they seem to be lacking is engineers with bachelor’s degrees–from anywhere!

I wasn’t really talking about just engineers… what about the rest of the majors? Are there enough good paying jobs for them in Alabama?

@MichiganGeorgia, maybe this will answer some of your questions about jobs in general: http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2015/12/alabama_job_growth_continues_e.html

And out of the business school (and engineering for those who are interested):
https://career.sa.ua.edu/employers/first-destination-reports/

Those median salaries suggest to me that a lot of students are remaining in the south, if not Alabama.

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7827 This article discusses a recent Harvard study that showed that campus scandals hurt enrollment. I wonder if UA’s mini scandals, especially those over the last eight or so years in reference to its Greek system, could be a factor in the decline of in state enrollment. In other words, the “scandals” that are well known locally, but not as well known at the national level might have lowered interest in UA among Alabama residents.

What local “scandals” are you thinking of, @Atlanta68?