<p>FWIW, most of our schools in HI are predominanty “Asian” but there are our public schools still lag greatly behind our elite privates. Many are ranked poorly in No Child Left Behind & many other measures. I don’t think racial stereotypes are helpful, but social & family supports & values DO have a role in education.</p>
<p>I read somewhere that the average number of hours/week that college students work at paying jobs (of those who do work) is 30, nearly full time. I don’t know how a kid could graduate even in 6 years with that kind of employment obligation, especially if starting out with remedial work. </p>
<p>Some colleges are at fault in that they don’t offer enough sections of courses in the major that kids need to graduate, so it takes >4 years. Our state U is notorious. Yet merit aid is only promised for 4 years, and furthermore, kids can lose it if their GPA drops below a B+, adding to the financial strain.</p>
<p>From my affluent public district, just about every kid starts college. However about 5%-10% do drop out, and this tends to include those with learning disabilities who got a social pass in HS, or accomodations without really having been educated; also the kids with alcohol/substance abuse issues don’t last long. Unfortunately there is lots of overlap in the two categories.</p>
<p>I take pretty much the opposite perspective: I can’t change the fact that a child’s dad is in prison and mom is working two minimum wage jobs. I can decide that the intensity of schooling that would work pretty well in an upper middle-income area with well educated parents is likely not going to serve this kind of child very well at all. Unfortunately, with a few bells and whistles aside, that’s what most urban schools do, perhaps layering on a Title I program or after school child care. </p>
<p>But there are some very capable schools that have made a very different choice to up the intensity and have powerful results: The KIPP schools, West Denver Prep, the SEED schools in DC (very innovative public boarding schools located in the most crime-ridden part of DC), Healthy Start Academy in Durham, NC. are some of my personal favorites. </p>
<p>It is absolutely true that some students – and some families – won’t put up with high intensity schooling. You can lead a horse to water… The sad part is that there are many low income families who would love options like these for their children, but the lottery lets only a small number in. </p>
<p>Figuring out how to strengthen our public schools – especially those serving poor children – remains one of our greatest struggles. But it not the case that we do not know what works – it is much more the case that the current system treats student outcomes as a very, very low priority. (Denver Public Schools are trying to implement a new practice this spring that will give high poverty schools the right to refuse to hire teachers in the reassign pool. It is meeting a huge amount of resistance from the Denver Classroom Teachers Association, aka, the Teachers’ Union, despite outspoken support from community members, foundations, businesses, and principals, all of whom understand that forcibly assigning teachers who may not have the requisite skill, interest, or philosophy into a school further perpetuates the poor results we’ve seen.)</p>
<p>My hubby put himself thru school working “part time” back in the day & it took him 7 years! Nowadays, it would be a lot more hours at a lot better paying job and yes, it would be quite a stretch for many with these increased expenses for EVERYTHING!</p>
<p>Even public Us are getting very expensive & I wish there were more & better answers. My friend who is an attorney is working hard to help the lowest performing districts in our state improve with significant national grant funding. She has devoted her full-time energies to this rather than earning any paycheck for herself. There aren’t enough of her to go around!</p>
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The title of the article is flawed IMO when it lumps all ‘minorities’ into one category. But in the context of the article it appears that they lumped groups together so I don’t know why what Barrons posted would be offensive since it was in the context of the article. They often don’t distinguish among ‘blacks’ those who are first generation from the islands and other counties besides the USA, those of high income parents, those of middle income, and those from a depressed low income area. The same is true with all generalizations. Why is an ‘Asian’ (a term used in the article) not considered a ‘minority’ in the title? The answer is that it’s a poorly worded title, but one designed to get one’s attention, and an article that makes gross generalizations about major races of people regardless of their individual backgrounds. However, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t ask some of the larger questions. It also doesn’t mean that Barrons’ point doesn’t have some validity (using similar gross generalizations). </p>
<p>I do understand though why many people would find some offense to being categorized by something like a basic racial category in the first place. Every time one does it, the assumptions being made won’t apply to many of those they’re pigeon-holing into that category. I think the only way around it is to quit focusing on race as a means of categorization and perhaps focus on other attributes (income level of family, intact family, ESL, etc.) that are more directly applicable and influential.</p>
<p>I would imagine that a larger predictor of whether a child will graduate is whether he/she has both parents involved in his/her life.</p>
<p>While you may say minority students attending CC, low-ranked publics, or other schools without stringent admission standards are “ill prepared” for university, hence low graduation, this really can’t apply in many of the instances mentioned in the article.</p>
<p>All of those schools in the artcle, and most state flagships, have stringent enough admission standards that they’re not going to let someone in who is totally unprepared to handle the coursework (with the exception of athletes, perhaps) - SAT, grades, essays, etc. are still evaluated holistically. Furthermore, most universities have plenty of remedial classes, tutoring, etc. available, especially for minority students. </p>
<p>I would say the #1 thing that must be preventing minority students from graduating, is cost. </p>
<p>Cost for education has risen DRAMATICALLY, and at my state flagship nowhere near 100% of need is met for families with 0 EFC. How can a family with 0 EFC then afford to attend school, unless he/she is admitted to a super selective university - such as Harvard - that will automatically land them a free ride? </p>
<p>If the student needs longer than 4 years to graduate (I don’t think it’s odd to take 5), if the student is working 30+ hours a week to contribute to education, if the student is a commuter, if the student must still support his/her family, if the student simply just does 2 years and realizes he/she can’t do the rest…all of these things are going to affect academic performance, interest in school, ability to graduate, ultimately. </p>
<p>I know one (minority) student personally who had to take a bus 3 hrs each way to school becase she couldn’t afford to live nearby and couldn’t afford a car. She had to constantly baby sit for her three siblings - sometimes she had to miss class - while her single mother tried to put herself through community college. She had to work to pay tuition. She graduated in 3 yrs because she couldn’t afford 4. </p>
<p>She is an exceptional human being, clearly, but how many students, no matter how academically gifted, no matter how prepared, could handle all of that burden? Could even stop themselves from flunking out, much less go above and BEYOND and graduate EARLY? I don’t doubt that many of her younger siblings will not make it as she did, and who could blame them?</p>
<p>The costs of attending college are too high, period, especially if you have a family to support.</p>
<p>I think cultural values play a larger part in this than race. Specifically, it seems like many first-generation immigrants and their children (Asians and Africans are prime examples) place more emphasis on education than do American minorities whose parents were born in the U.S.</p>
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<p>Very true, but then, it is not necessary for every student to go to a university or college no matter how much we push down the remedial education into lower grades there will always be a certain chunk that will not go on to college or university. I do know that intervention needs to occur far in advance of high school or definitely “college.” The world still needs skilled technicians, trades and vocational employees although slowly over the past three decades some of these vocations have slowly made their way into the university setting which might be good or not good…not sure I have an opinion about that other than the concern that an apprenticeship system might serve our society better for certain vocations and professions than a degree granting system all things being equal.</p>
<p>A cautionary note–colleges that graduate URMs at the same rate as nonURMs play a statistical game by cherry-picking high socioeconomic URMs who have been advantaged from preK-12. These colleges thereby avoid the cost of support services, and the extra time for remedial work that might delay graduation. I wouldn’t infer from a high URM graduation rate that a particular college is doing a better job in addressing different levels of preparedness in their URMs.</p>
<p>^This fits the recent trend of elite colleges admitting disproportionate number of first or second generation black immigrants to maintain its minority representation.</p>
<p>Proxy and Paperchaser- some of my pet peeves. Only poor and disadvantaged URM’s are “true” URM’s? Also, I’m not sure why a kid who was born and raised in the US but whose parent(s) were born in Africa or the Caribbean is not considered American. If a kid has a parent who was born in Poland, for example, but the kid was born in the US, no one considers that kid Polish for admissions purposes, but it seems that a black kid who was born in the US of immigrant parents somehow isn’t considered black.</p>
<p>Also, not all state U’s have holistic admissions. University of Texas has automatic admission to the top 10% of any high school in the state. It’s possible to be admitted UT with a 900 SAT (not saying that’s a frequent occurence) but have been the valedictorian at a low performing school.</p>
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<p>I think you may have missed my point. Let’s say I continued at my old high school. I would have received a 4.0 UW upon graduation. So statistically - at least GPA wise - I would have been a competitive applicant (well, there are other reasons as well). However, in my calculus class, we talked amongst ourselves while my teacher played WoW on his laptop. I would have gotten an A in the class, but can you say that I would have gone to a high level college with a strong background in math? My friends, who continue at the school, have not ever written a paper longer than 3 pages - not even in AP classes. Certainly they are statistically strong students (smart students, too), but they frankly don’t have the right practice. I got an A in Honors Biology and have an A in AP Biology. I tutor a seventh grader who goes to the local private school. She is learning concepts and facts in the seventh grade that my AP class only barely touched on - in the twelfth grade! I’ll have an A in my sciences classes, but you can hardly say I have the same amount of preparation she has (especially if I had stayed at my old high school). The students ARE statistically strong, and they usually do have some caliber of natural intelligence. But without the right exposure, those students will still need remedial classes.</p>
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<p>I don’t think this is true at all. Colleges accept students with their high school backgrounds in mind. That is, they accept students who excel even if they go to a bad school. I went to a podonk high school, and there’s little doubt I’ll meet someone from Andover or Exeter next year. Sure, maybe we both had an A average and a great SAT score, but comparing my education to hers would be extremely difficult at best. That doesn’t make me any less capable as a student; it means I haven’t had the opportunity to take a rigorous calculus class or a class on writing college level papers.</p>
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Your statement makes no sense. If a first-generation Polish immigrant is considered purely “American,” then so should a first-generation African immigrant. Or else, both should be considered Polish-American and African-American respectively. (I ignore for the moment the difference between the Polish nationality and the African continent-identity.)</p>
<p>There are many reasons that have lead to this, but, in my opinion, the family culture is the primary reason. </p>
<p>If you have an immigrant child who is new to the language and whose parents are illiterate that child will take many, many years (if ever) to become proficient in English. Early exposure to the written word in any language is critical for early language development. </p>
<p>Second, poorer students tend to come from less educated parents. Many of them will tell you that they want their child to get a good education but they have no idea of how to reinforce it at home. Poorer students also tend to come from unstable homes. Statistics vividly show that educated and financially stable families tend to be less likely to divorce and more likely to ensure that their children are getting a good education.</p>
<p>As a teacher, I rarely deal with problem students who come from educated, stable families and even the few that are a problem from those types of families usually have good, if not great, reading, writing and analytical abilities. (When these types are a problem it is usually from a learning disability, rebellion, parents who make excuses for his or her behavior and sometimes substance abuse.)</p>
<p>I think this is more socioeconomic than race. </p>
<p>My high school sends about 60-65% to college. The vast majority go to community as they can’t afford another option. Once there, they are a bit overqualified and feel like they are in “13th grade” and drop out. Or, they are working to put themselves through school and eventually work comes before school.
it’s sad, but the fact of life</p>
<p>" It’s possible to be admitted UT with a 900 SAT (not saying that’s a frequent occurence) but have been the valedictorian at a low performing school"</p>
<p>UT is a special case and that law which forces Texas publics to accept the top 10% is actually fairly recent. Many comparably ranked publics are not going to have such a weird situation going on.</p>
<p>For example, University of Maryland College Park. White grad rates in the 80s, URM grade rates in the high 60s. So, there is still a significant gap, despite a holistic admissions process, special programs for URMs from disadvantaged backgrounds/schools, extensive tutoring services, etc.</p>
<p>I too believe this is almost 100% socioeconomic (I don’t discount the fact that there may be SOME issues of culture/minority-status/etc. at play, but I hardly think it accounts for the majority of the problem) and wonder why they break down grad rates in terms of race, and not in terms of $$. Possibly so they don’t have to confront the real problem, and that is our country’s university system being in a dire situation, nowhere near open and available to all. These schools need more funding, they need to meet need (and then some, because we all know how screwed up EFC calculators can be), and nobody (legislators, taxpapyers, etc.) are ready to face the fact that the entire system needs a major overhaul, and can’t just be patched with some extra tutoring and remedial classes. It honestly makes me sick to think of the problem we face, which is only getting worse and worse (ex. MUCH harder now to put yourself through college than it was 5 yrs ago, harder 5 yrs ago than it was 10, harder 10 yrs ago than it was 20, etc. etc.).</p>
<p>much too complex an issue for this forum, but let’s get down to it: do we really need every urm kid to join the rest of our future un(der)employed phds? and what’s the problem with their becoming a plumber or car mechanic for example? my experience is that trade schools, apprenticeships and service academies are much less accepting of shortcomings typical of marginal “students”, compared with our educational system. fireman wannabe? better not show up the first day wearing hip hop jeans and your radio blasting nwa rap. but dude you can do how you want on campus. there’s a very uncomfortable truth here - if you’re afraid of getting shot walking around a particular neighborhood at night, the kids from that school aren’t likely to do well in college - for more reasons than anyone can enumerate. solution to problem has so far eluded even the best of college grads.</p>
<p>Is more socioeconomic than race? I am not so sure. Remember those boat people from Vietnam a while back? They are (or were?) both poor and minority and their kids perform well in school, generally speaking, after settling not so long ago in this country. It doesn’t take a village to raise a child. It just takes a family. Sadly, so many of the minority kids don’t have a good family structure to support them. I am not so sure what to do about it. Our district spends so much resources to close the achievement gaps and they seem to be wider and wider every year. I can see a flaw in our local plan: teachers are pushed very hard to help the low performing students, and those students are offered many incentives to do well. The plan just doesn’t have any component to deal with the parents. Maybe they should offer parenting classes and what not.</p>
<p>Keilexandra,
I think we’re saying the same thing. I do agree that in my example, either both kids should be considered immigrants or both should not. However, I’ve never heard of a white or asian kid born in the US being considered an immigrant for college statistical purposes. However there have been multiple stories detailing how most of the blacks at elite colleges are “immigrants”. However, most of those stories consider black kids born and raised in the US whose parents were born in the caribbean or Africa as immigrants. </p>
<p>In any case, if there was an easy solution or answer to this problem we wouldn’t be discussing it.</p>