<p>Yes, all of the island nations in the Caribbean are former slave colonies. And as documented by Professor Fragenals (spellling may be off), a great scholar of sugar plantation slavery, conditions on the plantations in Cuba, Jamaica et al were just as bad as that found on cotton and rice plantations in the U.S. Yet…the distinction that still has significance today is that the former slaves in the Caribbean and their desendants (as well as people today from sub-Saharan Africa) are the majority population and are immersed in a post-colonial culture and society where one’s race did not absolutely impede one’s liberty and opportunities; with the obvious exception of apartheid South Africa.</p>
<p>I too agree with you Hunt and also it’s regionally dependent. In our area there is a low percentage of African Americans and a high percentage of other groups that are at risk. In another area it might be American Indians or Laotians or Hispanic populations. With the exception of American Indians some of those other groups are relatively “new” to the country. African Americans are moving into many generations but are seemingly still plagued by stratification. I agree that it is time to stop focussing on what was and focus on what is and I’ve always believed that intervention needs to start before Kindergarten and requires much more than financial support in the form of welfare which most people woud agree isn’t solving the problem. The African American situation is interesting because it is extending into third or fourth generation but a good lesson so that it is not repeated with other recent at-risk cultural groups.</p>
<p>Mom’s a crystal meth addict and dad’s in jail. Kid can be white, 6th generation American and living in an all white county in a mostly white state, and is as much “at risk” as an Af Am kid in Bed-Sty.</p>
<p>Social dysfunction is not a black or white issue. There are generations of households which have been led by single mom’s who are uneducated, dropped out of 9th grade when they got pregnant, and the pathology continues to the grandchildren. So do we demonize all white people because there are millions of white households where the parent has never held a steady job, been married to the father of any of her children, or encouraged her kids to get a HS diploma instead of getting pregnant and repeating the entire pathetic cycle again?</p>
<p>
Should we demonize them? No. But neither should we demonize the educators who can’t meet seemingly arbitrary goals for their kids’ academic progress. And should we decide that we are going to have the kids meet those goals, the only way to do it is to remove them from the home.</p>
<p>Clearly no, you don’t demonize any group and agree with Zoosermom 100% that it is not the “fault” of the educational system or the teachers. It will take a seismic shift in thinking though including trying to find blame. It’s silly to try to find blame, that is looking back and not looking forward. Whatever was was and it’s whatever will be that is important.</p>
<p>You cannot possibly be advocating the position that having the state remove children from their mothers in the hopes of improving the country’s college graduation rates for URM is a worthy policy consideration.</p>
<p>There are worse things in human history than failure to obtain a college degree.</p>
<p>
No. What I’m saying is that if the ultimate goal is to close the gap, then extreme measures have to be taken. I’m a conservative and the though of the state interfering to that extreme in a family when the child is not in imminent danger makes me ill.</p>
<p>“Really? In Freakonomics data was cited showing the opposite: if you make the socio-economic, family structure, and parental education levels the same, black and white students are almost identical in terms of academic achievement.”</p>
<p>No, that’s not what most studies have found. Barrons and I were referring to studies of Shaker Heights, Ohio, a racially integrated, middle-class suburb where achievement gaps proved to be very stubborn. There’s a pretty good review of the study here: [Editor’s</a> Review of John U. Ogbu’s Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement](<a href=“Scaling Up Data Wise in Prince George's County Public Schools - Harvard Education Press”>http://www.hepg.org/her/abstract/38)</p>
<p>This pattern was the reason why, when Texas wanted to replace racial affirmative action in its public university system, but preserve racial diversity, they adopted the top 10% rule rather than adopting means-based affirmative action. Given the segregation of high schools, at top 10% system means you’ll admit lots of black and Hispanic kids. An admissions preference for the poor doesn’t give you racial diversity because the top-scoring poor kids are overwhelmingly white and Asian.</p>
<p>Re: the slave history in the Caribbean and Africa: yes, but immigrants to America from those countries are nothing like a cross section of the population. As has been the case with other ethnic groups, immigrants are rarely the “wretched refuse” of their home countries. Some are poor, some are uneducated, but they are the cream of that crop in other ways. The most motivated, family-oriented, and self-sacrificing members of the society are the ones who choose the risk and challenge of trying to make a better life in an alien land. Put another way, through immigration, we get the top 10% of the Caribbean and Africa. The top 10% of non-immigrant AAs do just as well as the immigrants.</p>
<p>Look at recent ACT results for National College Readiness of the 2009 graduating class who took the ACT:</p>
<p>35% African Americans
48% of Hispanics
77% of Caucasians</p>
<p>This is with the Benchmark of 18 as a composite score.</p>
<p>Since 2004 the average ACT score among African Americans has dropped from 17.8-16.9. Is it likely that the next few years are going to have a stronger graduation rate? </p>
<p>I don’t have the answers to this problem but I do know that kids who aren’t “Ready for college” shouldn’t be going to college. Throwing more money at the problem isn’t the answer.</p>
<p>The key is when you compare the scores of black students from families with middle-class incomes to the scores of poor whites. They’re about the same. That’s the problem.</p>
<p>I don’t think that’s the only problem.</p>
<p>I agree that the situation is societal. Bitd if you were on welfare, you didn’t want anyone to know - it was shameful. Now, it’s “How can I beat the system?” “How much can I get from Uncle Sam?” Parents want things easier for their kids so they don’t make them own up to their actions - let’s get an attorney and fight for my child who is always right and NEVER lies. You wouldn’t believe how many times I have heard that. I was a child and I lied. Everybody lies sometimes. Yet, when parents look at their children with rose-colored glasses, and not as a human beings who are fallible, they set the children up for failure. I have not taught in any inner city schools - mine have been high achieving suburban schools, yet, the character is still the same. And giving the kids everythign they want without making them work for it doesn’t help, either. And then there are the cars … so important that many kids work a lot of hours to pay for gas, etc., and don’t do their work. Trust me, give kids homework in this era, and a large percentage will NOT do it. They don’t study and would be perfectly happy if we could create a disc and place it into their brains so they wouldn’t have to do anything. My D is teaching right now, and she can’t believe the difference in even 4 years from when she graduated from HS - she had homework and a lot of it, and these kids just won’t do it. She had little sleep in HS. But maybe because educations is “free” many people take it for granted. What a shame. When your test product is a human being, then the results CANNOT rest solely on the school and teachers. It’s like a dentist being sued by someone because they didn’t follow his advice to brush his teeth after the work was done - or brusch before all the work had to be done.</p>
<p>
I’m not advocating it. I’m just saying it’s the only thing I can think of that would substantially address the problem. Barring that kind of radical action, you can only chip away at the problem, probably by providing services other than just better schools–you need things like longer school days, more nutrition, more counseling, etc. Stuff that really costs a lot of money. Those of you who think the underclass are responsible for their own problems, what exactly do recommend doing about it? Nothing?</p>
<p>
I think there is some responsibility on the part of the parents. However, I do not believe minor children bear any responsibility. So I would sadly say that there’s nothing that can be done for the really hard cases other than keeping the kids fed and safe.</p>
<p>So the question remains </p>
<p>“what to do?”</p>
<p>When one generation without a strong interest in self discipline, education and work ethic begetts the next one and so on–it is a culture of unproductive families…who do know how to work the system. The kids can tell you how the families go from one charitable agency to another…how they cycle through and get bills paid, etc from say the catholic charities and after that move on the lutheran social services etc…</p>
<p>And these kids- are dressed in the grundge hip-hop style–sporting expensive cell phones, expensive hair styles and air brushed fingernails…They spend more money on phones, hair and nails than I could afford on my substitute teaches wages!</p>
<p>It is a cultural thing and at the same time is costing the communities so much in taxes, time and support. It has not been unusual to have a class completely wasted trying to get the trouble makers to settle down–and the few that want to learn are being ripped off–and have to survive in that chaos day in and day out…</p>
<p>What frsutrates me–is I am paying for those kids and the families through MY hard earned wages and my childern will be paying for the kids grandkids–as they are having kids early and often so to speak…</p>
<p>If the kids aren’t going to learn and are certainly NOT college ready–then they need to be in vocational training or in maual labor jobs that are part of the community and contribute something worthwhile </p>
<p>My late father in law grew up VERY poor–a son of a share cropper–he started “working” at age 5…and did not finish high school --he went to work full time by mid hs…
He worked hard, eventualy bought businesse and successfully ran them
he served in the state legislature and died a multi million–</p>
<p>He did not use being poor, (from an abusive home no less) and uneducated keep him down.</p>
<p>Not everyone is suited to be colege bound AND any job done well is a good job.
Why not move kids who are not being served by the system into something else–A good mechanic, carpenter, plumber etc has a job for life if they enjoy the work and do an excellent job</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And your source is…?</p>
<p>What do we do? That is certainly the question.</p>
<p>First, we have to outline the problem we are trying to “solve.” The issue of graduation rates at top schools is very different than the dismal behavior and performance of some minorities on the whole. Students who attend decent to good to top schools usually have their head in the game, or at least more so - they are usually not the students abusing welfare systems (willingly) or remaining content with the low-income status quo. I believe that the issue of graduating those students is primarily financial and preparatory. That is, those problems can be “solved” (not entirely, but certainly partially) by increased financial aid (and/or lowered sticker prices), better high school preparation, and more competent college resources (i.e., a redesign of the “remedial” course selection if it must exist, offering enough sections, limiting time spent as an undergrad, etc.). I believe that dismal minority graduation rates at any school that requires competency of its applicants (i.e., not the lowest tier or open admission schools, though they may be successful schools) is an issue with preparation and money, and therefore can be fixed with certain reforms.</p>
<p>The problem of minority performance on the whole is a different one. I find that this is a socioeconomic issue, not a race issue. That said, minorities are concentrated on the lowest socioeconomic strata because of past oppression. I.e., white families have been able to amass wealth and/or socioeconomic status for three hundred years (while also robbing it of minorities), whereas minorities have only recently been introduced to what meager social mobility exists here. Now, that’s not to say the majority population “owes” something to minorities, but it is a fault to believe that minorities are some one or two generations later going to be able to perform at the same level of success as the majority population.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, minority populations have not only not been able to pick up the pace, they fail to do so at such a rate that history isn’t even close to being solely to blame. This is where it becomes a social issue (but unlike others seem (?) to believe, I don’t think it’s a biological issue). Some African Americans partake in “black culture,” which is, unfortunately, fairly well described by fogfog. How do we put an end to the “culture” which permits frivolous spending, welfare robbing, and lack of education? This is something that would probably take drastic measures; no one changes a culture overnight unless it happens forcefully - and despite dismal behavior, I hope no one’s advocating we take the same approach as we did with, say, the American Indians.</p>
<p>Anyway, the problem of minority performance can’t be fixed by someone outside the minority community. I just don’t think that that could somehow happen. I also seriously doubt it would be educated. The best bet would probably be to make education optional, but to simultaneously cut welfare benefits - so that those who fail to achieve have to live in a dismal state, and their children (hopefully it would take only one generation) would learn and grow from that. That’s never going to happen, and I hate to punish those who use social welfare systems correctly (i.e., necessarily but temporarily and as a last resort) because of those people who are idiots (innocent until proven guilty is a similar principle).</p>
<p>Here are a few changes I think ARE possible, and that would make a dent in this huge problem. Possibility doesn’t make them easy or cheap, but in my eyes, they are necessary.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Revolutionize the public education system. I would do it in a controversial way - split students by academic ability - but it need not be that way. I’m an advocate for MUCH stricter disciplinary policies as well as considerably tougher curricula. (Students of higher academic ability (which is, at the K-12 level, not really marked by intelligence but rather by ability to work), in my system, would probably have more freedom, but anyway.) Keep kids in school for a slightly longer day and a slightly longer school year (I personally believe it would be more effective to lengthen the school year by, say, 20 days, but recycle the summer into days off during the year). Enforce stricter dress codes, even uniforms in problem areas. However, rather than harm low-income students, provide uniforms to students. On the other hand, I’d want to see much less homework and much more rigorous, intensive work completed in school.</p></li>
<li><p>Stop the “every student should go to college” nonesense, but maintain that every student have some kind of ability. In this sense, I admire European systems. Starting at the end of tenth grade or so, shuffle some kids to trade schools, some kids to continue a regular education, and some kids to complete an especially college-prep eleventh and twelfth grade program. Like I said, I personally would have students stratified by academic ability, but that route could be avoided by using a combination of testing, recommendation, and student preference in the decision.</p></li>
<li><p>Change the way teachers teach and administrators… do whatever administrators do. Classes need to be smaller, and the curriculum needs refocusing. I’d like to see k-5 focused on basic skills and rote memorization, grades 6-8 focused on critical thinking, and grades 9-12 centered on practical application and/or intellectual exploration - with, of course, intermixing at each level. We have to find a balance here. At the local public schools, curricula are so focused on “critical thinking” and “application” that students can’t add two and two. The local private school is so focused on memorization that the seventh grader I tutor can list all the subphyla under Chordata but can’t break down a word like “ectotherm” because she doesn’t have it memorized.</p></li>
<li><p>Universal U.S. standards. All around the country, there should be standards as to what is taught, when, and how much.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>2. Stop the “every student should go to college” nonesense, but maintain that every student have some kind of ability. In this sense, I admire European systems. Starting at the end of tenth grade or so, shuffle some kids to trade schools, some kids to continue a regular education, and some kids to complete an especially college-prep eleventh and twelfth grade program.</p>
<p>But, then people would start figuring the % breakdown of minorities and whites being sent to trade school or being sent to the college-prep program.</p>
<p>Source:</p>
<p>[JSTOR:</a> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie](<a href=“http://www.jstor.org/pss/2999198]JSTOR:”>Why Family Income Differences Don't Explain the Racial Gap in SAT Scores on JSTOR)</p>
<p>The stats are from 1997, but there has been no contrary evidence since then.</p>
<p>[All</a> teachers fired at Rhode Island school - CNN.com](<a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/24/rhode.island.teachers/index.html]All”>All teachers fired at Rhode Island school - CNN.com)</p>
<p>Has anyone seen this story in RHode ISland?</p>
<p>We lived overseas for awile–what the kids were expected to learn (6 days a week at school) was much higher than the publics here–They had oral and written exams to pass from elem school–5th grade into 6th gade middle school…For example–the kids have to be able to exlpain the WHY with regards to the math problems…</p>
<p>And as the kids move onto univeristy vs trade etc–the kids are doing what they are most suited to do…based on aptitude and initiative…a pretty good idea. The only porblem I see is how the state pays for the unversity education and it seems like there are "lifers’ in school</p>