nmsqt -- crushed

Parents Forum
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<p>College Board doesn’t provide the means to learn anything. They charge people to take exams. And I will admit that some form of standardized testing is a good thing.</p>

<p>First of all, it is possible that some of the AP classes are harder than the college courses, but that is not true of the majority of the exams. I have no problem with advanced places classes, but those are taught by the same teachers that many test lovers villify. College board does not teach anything, as far as I know. Do you even know the qualifications of a single person who writes these exams? That’s something I would probably like to know before I make them billionaires.</p>

<p>Many of these exams are very simple, and on many you can get a score of 5 with around 60%. The proliferation of (IMO) some really ridiculous exams is also another money maker for these folks. This is the reason kids can self-study 10 of them and get 5s. Nobody should seriously be able to do that with 10 college level courses. I once again invite people to actually look at the sample exams from the college board site. If this is the difficulty of most first year college courses that’s a shame. I think I got almost every question correct on a couple of the exams (Government and Environmental Sciences come to mind). That was just pulling them down casually while bored one afternoon. And I don’t have any real expertise in those areas. </p>

<p>Calculus BC, Chemistry, and the Biology exams are reasonable, but I certainly wouldn’t consider getting 60% on any of these exams a definitive indication of mastery of first year Chem or Calc. In some cases yes, others no. </p>

<p>And shockingly, I think you can get a 30-40% or something like that on some tests and get a 3. Some places will give you college credit for that, which is barely better than guessing. </p>

<p>I have to say I completely don’t understand the point of Calc AB. Why have two exams, one which covers basically half of a college course, and the other the whole college course? Could it be a nice way for CB to pad its income? Sorry to be cynical and think a business is trying to make money.</p>

<p>The Physics exam, meh, it was okay but did not really seem to come up to the level of a decent freshman physics class. THe question is how much to get a five? Who determines what is an adequate level of competence? And isn’t this test split up into more than one test (correct me if I’m wrong)? What’s the point of that? I’m uncomfortable delegating all of this to one private organization, as are several top universities that still require their own placement exams.</p>

<p>Let me point out that I do very well on CB exams, and was a NMSF, etc. etc. The mere fact that I enjoy these exams and they have benefitted me does not blind me to this racket.</p>

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<p>True, College Board doesn’t actually educate anyone, but their “racket” (and it certainly is a big money-maker) is a system of motivation and rewards that pushes many thousands of kids to excel academically, and pushes schools to teach at the highest levels. Surely you don’t think the government or most local school boards would have developed a college-preparatory program as successful as AP on their own. I fail to see how College Board is making education worse; the fact that they make money at what they do does not negate the importance of what they do.</p>

<p>As for 60% being a high score, that means only that the tests are hard, not that people are getting easy 5’s. And have you taken an intro-level college course in anything lately? There are imbeciles who can still pass an intro college course, so why should someone capable of getting a 5 on an AP exam be forced to sit through the same crap again, when they could be starting at a more advanced level and actually challenging themselves?</p>

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<p>One more addition to my already lengthy post above. What’s with the subject test - AP test overlap? CB again offers two exams on the same subjects, so they are getting double money and having double power in admissions. And lest you think the AP exams are always so much more difficult than the subject exams, I invite you to look at the kids side of this website, where often kids score very high on APs and lower on subject tests, and complain that the subject test was harder than the AP.</p>

<p>All that being said, I certainly think subject type tests are far more important than the all powerful “Reasoning Test.” And I think a lot of universities would concur.</p>

<p>/rant</p>

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I do not believe they are making education worse, I don’t necessarily think they are making education better. But it is sort of hard to tell because there are so many things that are probably making education worse. I personally believe my father got a far better high school education than I did. That was pre-AP.</p>

<p>BTW - I’ve looked at Freshman physics exams/problem sets from my alma mater (UCSD), and they are reasonably tough. Ditto for first year Calc. That’s a middle of the road type school, not Caltech or MIT. I don’t think they’re a joke. </p>

<p>Please, look at the AP tests. They are not that hard. IMO, nobody should get college credit for scoring less than 50% on a MC test.</p>

<p>But I get the impression you really like these test Mantori. I don’t, I think they could do a much better job, and I think people (particularly kids) get way too obsessed with them. Heck, I’m obsessed with the subject. So we’re never going to agree.</p>

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<p>We do agree about the subject test/AP test overlap. I can’t see a good reason for it.</p>

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<p>I have noticed a negative trend in AP as the popularity and profit margin have grown. Like anything that becomes mass marketed and standardized, there is an industry serving the industry. Now we have Barron’s, Kaplan etc. producing test prep books. I am disconcerted by the sight of newly enrolled AP students flocking to the local Barnes and Noble to buy test prep books for each of their AP classes on day one - at their teacher’s request. Since test prep now paralells instruction (not the case in my bygone era of AP, when no one had yet authored a test prep book for AP - at least to my knowledge) I fear the AP course in too many cases is broad in scope to increase test scores, and lacking in depth due to time constraints given the breadth of topics covered.</p>

<p>Back to the OP’s original dilemma and circumstances: It is important for parents to realize that in public high schools student/counselor ratios are typically 450 to 1 - and in some cases much worse. So no matter how good your counselor’s college admissions knowledge, you are fighting for attention against a sea of other troubles (kids on probation, substance abuse, abusive parents/students, teen pregnancy, attempted suicide, sexual misconduct and various criminal activities). Your kid’s college conversation is the highlight of the counselors day - but it has very demanding competition for time and attention so plan accordingly and back up everything with your own research.</p>

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<p>I can see having two tests, but IMO they should-

  1. Always make the AP exam markedly more difficult than the equivalent subject exam. and
  2. Have the student submit one or the other for admissions. Not both.</p>

<p>That is my main suspicion about the CB or any other profit making entity completely controlling this process. And I am all in favor of profit. I am just not sure that there are not times when the profit motive might collide with the educational / evaluative motive. The CB has to design tests pleasing to both universities and applicants, in order to try to maximize their profits. Sometimes those might be competing stakeholders.</p>

<p>Okay, I’m done with my hijack.</p>

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<p>laffter, By hanging onto your sense of humor, you are way ahead of the game! Best of luck to you and your child who will certainly find a school that fits academically and financially.</p>

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<p>That is absolutely not true. Just to start, we have two on this thread alone. A lot of parents do not feel comfortable talking about their families finances and that’s understandable. I am very open about it because that’s what I found most helpful when we started this process and so I try to offer the same. </p>

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<p>On this we absolutely agree.</p>

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<p>I agree as well. I came in April and there were multiple threads by students who had perfect SAT/ACT scores who had been turned down by their dream school and were in total disbelief. No matter how many times they read that it was ONE part of their admissions portfolio, they just could not fathom being turned down.</p>

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<p>@ laffter, what a bummer! But don’t beat yourself up–I don’t think the skipped test caused your DD to lose anything, including her chances for merit money. We were in a similar boat a couple of years back, when DD took to heart the generalized GC advice to juniors: “Concentrate on school/grades, don’t study for the PSAT…it’s a <em>practice</em> test.” Of course, when she made commended, I wondered, “What if she had studied?” In the end, I don’t think her best SAT scores ever correlated to the tippy-top percentile required for NMF status, just as your DD’s current SAT and ACT scores indicate possible commended status (it looks like the qualifying score will be 201 for 2009 takers) but a long shot for a NMF-qualifying score in NY, which has been running 218-219. I give a huge “atta girl/boy” to those kids who knock it out of the park on the PSAT because it’s quite a feat of raw capability and/or very hard work!</p>

<p>The loss of commended is no big deal, IMO. I think all commended gets you is more marketing mail from colleges! Our DD received several merit offers (the highest was $10,000/year), not one of which was tied to her PSAT score or commended status; instead, they were stated to be based on her GPA and high SAT, and in a few instances, also on EC’s and other holistic values.</p>

<p>Good luck to your DD!</p>

<p>@ blueiguana, your son’s PSAT score is recorded in his College Board account.</p>

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<p>^TXArtemis - Thanks, found it there, however not the original hard copy which I thought had the information I had given in my previous post. On the ‘one off chance’ that S2 receives a ‘packet’ from GC in September I will ask him to PLEASE give me everything that he is given. </p>

<p>This one is specifically bad, even with report cards. They get shoved in the backpack. We ask the grades. The child (at least so far) is incapable of pulling off a believable lie, and he knows it (shows all over his face). He wouldn’t bother trying. We never ask for the hard copy of his grades, just ask. His older brother…whew! He could sell you the bridge to nowhere!! Usually I could smoke him out, but he was good (or bad). Luckily he finally learned his lesson.</p>

<p>I did talk with S3 today about PSATs. He will be the first one that we will actually ask to prepare/study for the Jr year testing. Knowing now the stakes, he should put in a bit of effort. Our kids take soooo many placement tests & standardized state tests that don’t amount to a hill of beans for them personally as long as they do reasonably well, that they think it’s just one more test. He gets the distinct honor of being the third ‘waffle’ as another poster put it. :)</p>

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<p>You might consider visiting the school home page once a week to make sure that you aren’t missing anything. Ds high school publishes a daily and weekly bulletin, as well as a monthly newsletter. I often knew about college visits, special assemblies, open houses and exams weeks before my D received notification in class. Parents are also strongly encouraged by the high school to periodically log in to the student account to check their assignments and grades. We expect her senior year to be packed with special events and other academic and social opportunities. As long as you are on top of it, I’m sure you (both) will be fine. :)</p>

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<p>We do check the website. The majority of information is about sporting events or club meetings. Important to be sure, but it doesn’t cover everything a parent needs to know. The Family Connection page is buried and if you don’t know where it is, you’d certainly not know where to look. They do have a listing, though rarely up to date, of college representatives that visit.</p>

<p>Usually we look for this information from the schools he is interested on their websites. Often they will visit on an evening at only one high school in the area. It’s not a perfect system, but it works. Also, word of mouth via other parents is helpful.</p>

<p>We also have an online gradebook and assignement calendar. The assignments I have emailed to myself & the boys. The gradebook is their responsibility to check 2x/week. Both are only as accurate as the teacher using it. Some are great about entering assignments, making it easy for students who miss class. Some never use it at all. They are required to have the grades up to date at least weekly, however EVERY year there is at least one teacher that doesn’t input grades online until grades are due. We just have the kids touch base with the teacher at school.</p>

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<p>AP courses are one of the best things that happened to high schools. Students from an unknown HS who get 5s on their AP tests can show they know more than those from the more elite HS who get lesser scores. An A from a teacher doesn’t mean a well taught AP course if the student who studied only gets a 3 on the AP exam- things aren’t perfect.</p>

<p>AP courses are considered to be only average college courses- the calculus and other courses are much tougher (cover a lot more material) at many of the top flagship U’s as well as at many elite private schools (for example- many of those with AP calc need to repeat first semester calc to do will in the next course at UW-Madison).</p>

<p>Addenda- several posts while I composed mine just now. Comment about son- we’ll never know if he could have gotten NMS money, I didn’t want to imply he couldn’t be a NMS/get the money but that we knew someone else would benefit more from it. Was trying to show from one has has been there/done that (ie NMS) that it isn’t the most important thing for determining college life success- many stories of peers. Of course OP likely needs the money- I certainly did. My success even with less scholarship money than possible paved the way for son not needing to worry about money. </p>

<p>My point- the same endpoint can be reached even with this “misstep”. Move on with your life and don’t have regrets about the paths open/closed to you. It may save your D from going to a school just because they sponsor a lot of NMSs but are not as academically strong as the one she ends up attending. The further you/she go the more choices made and more chances for “what ifs”. Don’t obsess about them.</p>