As someone said, even if your kids’ school inputs into Naviance, it’s of limited use. I started an OP over the summer asking folks here what online tools were best to at least approximate admissions-relevant data per school. I guess the CDS is one. But you have to pull those and then get the data out. Not great if you/your kid are just doing initial research. But, once a good list of realistic applications is formed, the CDS is a goldmine.
I have to run now, but I’ll try to see if I can dig out that thread. From what I remember, Naviance has some significant limitations.
Agreed - but I don’t think it’s as dismal. For example, the closest to “Safety” on the son’s list is Trinity - where the 25/75 GPA is 3.6 to 4 and ACT is 30/34. So they are tops on both.
Oh by the way - only 18% submitted an SAT and 13% an ACT in the latest CDS - so those scores are likely inflated.
So by the #s - they are likely in even though they admit 1/3 (34%).
But - and this may be where you’re going - today you see more and more schools filling classes through ED. Penn is filling over half their class this way as are other schools - so other than your ED / ED School (if you want to take that chance), especially at the better schools, there are less and less seats available.
Wesleyan has admitted half their class the last five years ED, etc.
So it is definitely a changed world - and with kids applying to more and more schools (and they are), the “higher end” colleges are themselves pushing the envelope to get a guaranteed butt in seat. The “lesser” schools - for lack of a better word and it’s an unfair word - can’t pull that lever to the same extent.
I think OP has lots of warnings now though and the kids will no doubt be fine.
As the saying here on CC goes, “the safety is the most important school.” I agree with this 100%. We never expected our son to end up at his safety. In fact, we told him he needed to do an overnight visit to confirm he would like it. And indeed he does. He is a happy Junior and we are glad his choice saved us a lot of money over his other, more expensive choices.
(We did find out last year that he was taken to a frat party on that overnight visit. Hmmm, wonder if that influenced his decision? )
Our school is relatively new to Scoir and has the last 3 years data. I have thoroughly enjoyed limiting the search to 2022-2022 to see how child’s classmates are faring. I think juniors need to look at this data and say ok, all 5 kids who applied to GT got denied, as did the 5 kids to UVA. 2/8 got into ND. May put some perspective on the college search.
Adding to this, an AO at a T20 school told our D’s class this year that how accepted students are faring in their school IS a small factor in their admissions. Not sure this is entirely fair, but they basically said it frames how they see the school report. If students with great rigor and excellent grades are succeeding at their college, they feel quite comfortable understanding that similar applicants are likely to do the same. If the opposite is true, it gives them pause. AO said this to a group of very high achieving and bright scholars, so I imagine it was to ease their concerns…but he still said it.
Our guidance department forces every student to apply to a school that either a) they are 90%+ certain they’ll be accepted or b) a school where their GC has a phenomenal relationship with the AO and where that student would be in the 75% range of accepted students. Basically, at least one “slam dunk.”
I think to the fullest possible extent applicants should be assessed only in areas that are under their control.
This position also validates a pretty damning criticism of elite colleges, which is that they are just hothouse finishing schools. A poor reflection on that institution all around.
Unfortunately there is plenty that isn’t under a student’s control that goes into admission. That’s why everyone on CC hammers home the need of having an extremely likely school on everyone’s list.
IMO, tracking how well prepared accepted students from a specific HS fair in college can speak to if there is grade inflation, how rigorous the curriculum really is, and how that HS is actually preparing its students.
Part of the job of regional AOs is to know the HSs in their area. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that they track success rates.
I think that makes perfect sense. D20 graduated with a 4.0/top 1% SAT/all 5s on APs. She attends a T20 LAC that boasts about their academic rigor. They accepted 1-2 students every year from her HS but no one ever enrolled. For 2 years, D20 has said how poorly she was prepared. How she never read any of the English books others had read, she was awarded a foreign language department award but has had to get extra help because her grammar is all wrong, and she feels everyone arrived on day 1 knowing things she was never exposed to. Her grades are meh, nowhere near the 4.0 of HS and she struggles to keep up every day. Last year, 6 students from her HS applied and no one got in. You can research schools all you want and some things are invisible until you get there.
How can you expect a college to NOT consider that kind of data?
If they have 20 enrolled kids from a high school, all with high school 4.0s and similar rigor as new applicants, and many are struggling, it’s an important data point.
It swings the other way, too. There is a popular school that used to accept only a small number from my kids’ high school, but the yield and college success of those kids was high. For the past 3 years or so, they have started accepted many more, I am sure in part because of the previous students’ performance. This isn’t an elite school that any would accuse of being a finishing school, but a somewhat selective school that wants to enroll students who will succeed.
There is next to nothing that students solely control in the application process. From their zip code onward, it’s an inherently uncontrollable process. The process is about maximizing probabilities, not controlling anything. Wanting them judged only on controllable factors would eliminate just about everything.
McGill would be a safety, and a good choice, for Econ. It would seem to fit the bill in some ways for your S, but don’t know if “preppy” is the best description of it, though S1 (mine) has preppy’ish tendencies and does fine there.
I have no clue about Film studies at McGill. Certainly doesn’t jump out to me as one of it’s strengths. I always think NYU for that major.
However, it is impossible to avoid stuff outside the student’s control affecting the applications and credentials. Examples include what opportunities were available at home and school, and the big one of financial limits that limits most students’ choices of application and matriculation.
Also, elite colleges that use recommendations allow for additional ways that the applicants are affected by others as well as themselves.
S2(ENG) in state for MN…I told him to use Iowa State as a safety, but the MN acceptance came early enough there was no need. Bonus is that he really likes the school, and the major within, anyway, and the job possibilities within a few mi. of the campus are very promising. Once he had that admit, and realized he would be fine with going there, then he relaxed quite a bit. It’s odd…the reach schools he has are the ones he is less sure about attending should he be admitted.
This is why grade inflation doesn’t help kids. My kids go to a school where no one graduates without getting a B at some point. My oldest has spoken to 2021’s top student and gotten the low down. He said he had a couple of B’s. It’s a highly selective school that takes only a small % of applicants. They work those kids for 4 years in every subject no coasting. When they go to college, they are all prepared. The kids at the “bottom” of the class end up in schools that some on CC consider top tier.
I think it’s important to remind yourself that if your kids are getting an A in every class the schools too easy, or the grades are inflated. This might help everyone feel good or it might just be a way to boost everyone in the eyes of colleges. Yep, my kid has top SAT(.5%) and tons of APs, lots of rigor and exposure to very high level writing, science, math and research. Not a perfect 4.0. The colleges know the rigor of the school. For students from our school, the hardest part is kids applying to schools where the high school isn’t that well known. For the typical schools kids get in and do very well. How do I know? Alumni news stories of many winning academic awards including a Rhodes scholarship etc. Kids are thriving.
So when I read CC, I see all the 4.0’s in the world aren’t going to help if you haven’t got the basics down and you are suddenly thrown into a class of kids who’ve seen this Junior year of high school.
For me- very big, very diverse public HS, the key difference once I got to college was the quality and amount of writing some of peers were used to. (I was a humanities major, I can’t speak to the depth of the math prep at my HS). If you are getting A’s at a HS where a “research paper” is five pages, all secondary sources, and you’ve never been taught how to footnote or what a proper citation is, you are going to have to work hard to catch up. If a history exam is a multiple choice assessment- oh brother, a college history exam (where perhaps you have to analyze a diary, an obscure primary source and put it in context) is going to be a shock to the system!
That’s not a bad thing per se… but it does mean that “grade inflation” isn’t always about getting A’s for B+ work. It also reflects pedagogical technique, class size, teacher prep, teaching loads, etc. I got back a history exam freshman year of college which had a ten page addendum from the professor- not a TA, but a “famous professor” where he dissected my arguments, added several books I might be interested in reading, explained where my logic was faulty and how I could retrace my steps, etc. Extra reading? I could barely keep up! But I had classmates from prep schools and magnet HS’s who were used to this type of feedback! (At my HS you got a grade circled in red if the teacher was disappointed, circled in blue if the teacher was happy).
The kids in her with higher rank but overall lower stats were all kids of staff members. D would say how those kids would get up in the middle of a test and go get help from the teacher. Yes, they got a 100 on everything and have settled in at less “prestigious” schools where maybe they don’t feel as far behind. It was her choice to challenge herself with an academically demanding school and I give her all the credit in the world for sticking with it. The kid who graduates last in his class at Harvard Medical School is still called “Doctor” so there’s that… (luckily she is not targeting med school)
Yes, I agree, at some point the challenge is there and kids either work at it and get it done or move on to something else.
There are many kids in prestigious colleges who have weak areas due to lack of preparation. They did the work they were supposed to and did very well but they weren’t exposed to the depth and breadth other students received. ( I think this is an educational issue across the board and perfect grades hurts kids).
For us, it’s not about the prestige of the college. It’s more about the fit. Many kids go on to grad school so the kid who is bottom of the class isn’t doing themselves a huge favor. I would send a kid who doesn’t like math to Caltech even if they could graduate last. (MIT and Caltech vet carefully so this doesn’t happen).
Personally, I’d be wary of the Harvard Med school analogy. The kid wouldn’t even get into med school if their college GPA doesn’t cut it. And while the person might be called Doctor. The differences in their trajectory between top and bottom is vast. Doctors are like any other profession and even more competitive than most. Many want the best residencies and want to work in the best hospitals. The kid at the bottom is getting last dibs. I get your point.
IMO, getting a degree from highly prestigious U isn’t the be all, end all. It’s what you learned and how well you did and what you do after the degree.
Obviously, we chose a school where our kid would get stretched academically v. perfect scores. I think it will work out fine. Our kid said that it was the best choice ever. Feels really well prepared and will do well at any school. In our family that’s success, YMMV.
Pretty much sums it up. For kids used to this, college is a fairly easy transition. For some, it’s a very rocky road. Personally, I think it’s getting more and more difficult to close the gap esp in some subjects.
We have that same situation on a smaller level at our large private high school. Kids matriculate from about 50 middle schools. Kids that went to A, B, C, D or E are considered prepared for the top track. Most other students have had little to no homework or rigor ever and unless they are naturally smart AND hardworking (which of course lots are), they will struggle in the top classes.
and the kids will no doubt be fine.
)