This topic can heat up fast. Slow mode has been enabled to give everyone a chance participate and to give folks time to think about the kindness of their post before hitting Reply.
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Sam got their PR in track, and they earned their varsity letter. The coach is so proud of them.
I don’t even try. If someone goes down the pronoun hole with me, I simply re-arrange my sentences:
Sam PR’d in track and earned a varsity letter. Coach was so proud.
Face-to-face, I just use the person’s name.
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I appreciate your posts, @harrypottereatspie !
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That makes sense on many levels actually: that it started with a good intention, that it would be easy to pronounce in English, that it didn’t ask for input from non English speakers nor from the people it was supposed to represent, and thus that it failed in its use.
Language is ‘alive’ and is going to go through false starts, too.
Do you say “Lati -nè”? (In case I come across the word and need to say it, or just to say it properly in my head).
as a fluent chinese speaker, this is not very accurate. they are the same pronounciation but when written out, they have different components that denote gender.
他 - he
她 - she
它 - it
他们 - they (refers to a group of people, regardless of gender)
她们 - they (refers to a group of women ONLY)
look i’m not sure in what aspect I came off to you as rude. i’m assuming that you are a grown adult arguing with a TEENAGER. honestly, if you don’t want to use “latine” or “latinx”, not a lot of people are going to get offended. i’m simply presenting a possible, gender neutral alternative for referring to a larger group of mixed-gender people. throughout this thread you have been outrageously stubborn (for what reason, I’ll never know), even when people have, in quite a civil manner, tried to educate you on the importance of gender-neutral language. as a nonbinary person I strongly do not appreciate the lack of open-mindedness when it comes to gender-neutral language and nonbinary identities, to the point where I think you are even mocking us and being highly disrespectful. i’m just a teenager on the internet, and I know that I can’t change you. but times, whether you like it or not, have changed significantly. maybe you should try and change a little too.
omg thank you !! I’m trying to reply to multiple people at once since the threat is on slow mode. i appreciate it a lot and I’m glad someone is listening to me. not easy when i’m a nonbinary teenager in a parent-dominated area.
I’m glad you realize this :] it’s truly refreshing to see people in this thread be open-minded about language and its change. and yes, I pronounce it much like you would say “latino” or “latina”, but ending with an “-eh” sound.
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Not specifically related to the ‘they’ issue, but I am tired of language euphemisms. Just today the Ask Amy column uses the term ‘sex worker’ as if that somehow softens the real meaning, which is ‘prostitute’. We now have ‘unhoused neighbors’ . Newspapers no longer distinguish between legal or illegal migrants, all are just immigrants. ‘Riots’ cannot be called riots. And on and on.
It’s exhausting.
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@TatinG I think you don’t know what those terms mean. “Unhoused” ≠ homeless. A person may be homeless (as in they don’t have a home be it an apartment, house, RV, whatever), but they may not be on the street. They may be temporarily staying with friends or relations. They are still homeless and need something for the long term, but their short term needs are taken care of and they are not unhoused. Same with the other terms you mentioned. Sex workers may not all be prostitutes who have sex for money. I won’t go into it, but there are a lot of other ways to make money in that larger field including online, etc.
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Some of us have acquaintances in our larger network who have lost their jobs in their 50s or 60s and complain that age discrimination is making it difficult to find new work. But in this thread we see a hint of an alternative explanation. Learning new things, even with the goal of creating a more respectful workplace, is described as exhausting or a strain on the brain for some members of this group. But some of the posters recognize that we are lifelong learners with great capacities for recognizing that language is constantly evolving and we are able to change how we refer to acquaintances by new names due to marriage, for example.
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To preserve subject/pronoun agreement when referring to singular people of unknown sex/gender, we need a unisex singular pronoun (and pronoun set…).
Subject: heir
Object: heirm
Possessive: heirs
Examples:
Heir wants to complain? Well… let heir.
Someone and heirs brother ought to help that lady.
I gave it to heirm.
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Yes, we are lifelong learners. I love to learn. But some of these new terms are meant to change the meaning: to put a different spin or connotation on a word.
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It may seem more prevalent in liberal areas because kids/adults feel more comfortable coming out or identifying their true identity.
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My daughter has a bunch of kids in her school who are LGBTQ+ and some of them identify as non-binary. The school is an alternative public charter school that attracts kids who haven’t had or wouldn’t have good experiences in traditional high schools, so it’s hardly surprising that there might be more people who feel free to express their identities. (I should note we also live in a liberal city).
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If you listen to stories of people who are trans or non-binary or who feel most comfortable presenting themselves as the opposite gender, it’s really not about being able to express strength or being able to express sensitivity. It’s about their very identity. (note: there are people who like to play with or take on different genders and identities and they may be choosing to present as male or female to express strength or identity.)
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It’s not an issue of us old folk being unable to adapt.
It’s that we old folk have been around long enough to get an idea of what works and what doesn’t. Are people more respected because we went from “Hispanic” to “Latino/Latina” to “Latinx” to “Latine”? Is the world a better place because we went from “Negro” to “Colored” to “African-American” or"Black"? Or “homeless” to “unhoused”? I haven’t seen any improvements just because we changed some words.
These kinds of arguments about how to refer to people are pointless because ultimately, they don’t change anything. They’re just placeholder issues that people get caught up in because they don’t know how to address the more problematic, underlying issues, like how people are actually treated. There’s also nothing more human than one group of people telling others how to live their lives, and that includes going overboard in telling them what words they can and can’t use.
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Not all sex workers are prostitutes.
And the phrase “sex worker” isn’t a euphemism. It’s a phrase that describes the work much more accurately and clearly.
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As a 72-year-old grandmother of two transgender college-age young people, I admit that it has been difficult to change my original perception of them as my two oldest grandsons . The older of the two prefers the pronouns they/them; the younger she/her. I often trip up on the pronouns when speaking to my daughter (their mother). As a grammar “freak”, i continue to have trouble with the singular they. But I am trying to adapt and to see these young people as they are now and not as they were in the past. i’m not sure if it’s easier or harder that they don’t live close to me. I see them once or twice a year, and therefore really don’t know them that well. My younger children (who are in the same age range as my grandchildren) are accepting of the gender fluidity, but it’s also been a bit awkward for them.
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The word ‘worker’ has an honorable connotation. The use of the term ‘sex worker’ is meant to add that connotation. I don’t think strippers or masseurs are ever called ‘sex workers’.
My world is better because it’s no longer ok to call me certain names because of my ethnicity.
Of course how people treat each other is the most important thing.
Sometimes changes in words come from an underlying improvement in how we treat people. Sometimes changes in words is a catalyst for those improvements.
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It was pretty shocking when we were visiting a progressively liberal college with out high school junior and everyone associated with the school introduced themselves by name, said where they were from, and what their pronouns were. It was surprising to think of the need to tell someone you were a “they” was equally as important as your name or major.
There’s a difference between words or phrases that purely exist as slurs, and words like Latino or he or she.
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“Strippers” are included in the category of sex workers.
Masseurs/Masseuses are people who give massages. If the massages are non-sexual, they are not sex workers. If there is a sexual element, then they are included in the category of sex workers.
I don’t see anything wrong with calling them “workers.” That’s what they are. If a person really needs to identify the job as honorable or dishonorable, the word “sex” probably takes care of it.
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Isn’t it odd that while some terms deemed offensive are removed from polite conversation, other terms that are offensive become more commonplace. I’m talking about m#f#, the b-word and words of that ilk. Or even the term “Karen” which is offensive to anyone with that name.
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