Non-Traditional Student - Chances?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>I'm a 29 year old undergrad student. I started college when I was 22 (after earning a G.E.D.), and have been taking classes for seven years now (189 credits so far... scary thought!). I've had excellent semesters and some really crappy ones. My first three years were spent at a highly regarded SUNY community college. My next three were spent at one of the better ranked SUNY schools, where I've earned 98% of the credits towards an anthropology degree. </p>

<p>Last summer, after coming to terms with my middling academic success, I hunkered down, regrouped, and concluded that I should take the prerequisites necessary for physician assistant school. I returned to my original community college (which I love and believe in, and will defend at any opportunity) and began taking the prerequisite classes. I had never taken any "hard" science classes before.</p>

<p>To my surprise, I ended up doing amazingly well, with a 3.98 GPA for the year. This included a very challenging 19 credit semester of gen bio, gen chem, calc, anatomy, and stats (straight A's). </p>

<p>Basically, I've taken to this stuff like a duck to water, and I've started to wonder if I'm aiming high enough. The more I research differences between being a PA and being a physician, the more I am drawn towards the more difficult and lengthier route. That begs the question: would med schools be understanding of my spotty academic past, and my CC prereqs? Here is a breakdown of my grades.</p>

<p>Overall GPA: 3.357
GPA minus retakes: 3.500</p>

<p>Science GPA: 3.6625 (in my freshman year, I got an F in college algebra).
sGPA minus retake: 3.907 </p>

<p>Grade Distribution by Credit Hour:
A : 106 credit hours
A-: 19 credit hours
B+: 21 credit hours
B : 3 credit hours
B-: 9 credit hours
C : 4 credit hours
C-: 15 credit hours :(
F : 12 credit hours :(</p>

<p>The bad grades tend to be concentrated in my 1st and 11th semesters, with a couple more F's and C-'s interspersed in otherwise decent semesters at the 4 year school. Thankfully, the bad grades tend to be in electives (mostly..): women's studies, poli-sci, drawing, french, english. Two F classes were retaken, along with one C- class. One F was in an elective geology class, so I didn't compute it towards my sGPA. </p>

<p>My grades at the community college tend to be higher than at the four year school. While med school admissions will see this as a sign that I ran back to CC to take my prereqs, the fact is that the CC is a superior school, and I will defend their curriculum as best I can. I also have a compelling personal issue for why I returned to the community college (death in the family). </p>

<p>I have a few EC's - nothing too impressive - but none are medical-related. I plan to attack that problem soon, but I can imagine it might be too little, too late. </p>

<p>Finally, if I were to take the MCAT, I think I might be capable of a very high score. I've looked over a study guide: I feel confident with the material. If I push myself for a couple months, I believe something in the range of a 38 might be possible. </p>

<p>So, chance me guys. Be brutal! </p>

<p>Might med schools take me after another year of polish, or would I be better served to forget them and focus on PA schools?</p>

2

<p>

You do realize that a score of 38 or higher is only achieved by the top 1.7% of all applicants don’t you? ;)</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/download/264234/data/combined11.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/students/download/264234/data/combined11.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

3

<p>Kdog,</p>

<p>Yes, I did realize that! I meant that number to be more of a motivational factor than anything. I am decently confident that I could get a score at or above the 90th percentile - so, about a 34 or higher. A 38 would be towards the upper range of what’s possible. Not likely, to be sure, but a great place to set my sights. A more reasonable estimate would probably be 35 (with a standard variation of… let’s say 2 points). </p>

<p>If all of this seems overconfident, there unfortunately isn’t much I can say to prove myself until I’ve taken the test. I certainly hope I’m not being overconfident.</p>

4

<p>mike–have you taken a MCAT diagnostic exam? Prep courses purveyors and AMCAS offer old exams (for a fee) for students to practice on.</p>

<p>You may feel motivated, but until you’ve actually tested yourself against a real (or at least areasonable facsimile thereof) MCAT, you cannot say you will get a 38–or a 28 for that matter. </p>

<p>Do not underestimate the difficulty of this exam. My hyper-achieving D2 just took her first diagnostic exam-- and suffice it to say her score was a huge shock (in a bad way) to her. The MCAT is not an easy test and the students who take the exam are among the highest achieving in the country. (i.e. you will have very tough competition.)</p>

<p>One other consideration: when are planning taking the MCAT? Because in January 2015 there will be whole new exam which will be longer (by about 1.5-2 hours) and have additional science and non-science topics included.</p>

<p>2015 MCAT explained:</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/mcat2015/[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/mcat2015/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The new MCAT 2015 also means there will likely be a large upswing in the numbers of students taking the old MCAT before the new one goes into place. (Which means it may be harder to score in the top percentiles.)</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>The other factors influencing your ability to get into med school are your state residency–because some states are better places than other when it comes to accepting in-state students [e.g. Texas – good; California–bad), whether or not you are willing to apply to DO programs as well as MD programs, and how long ago you took some of your coursework. </p>

<p>While there is no sunset rule for reporting your grades (IOW, no matter how long you took a class, you are still required to report it, include it in your GPA calculations and provide transcripts.), some medical schools do have windows within which you must have taken your pre-reqs. For example, at D1’s med school, there is a requirement that critical pre-req classes [or an acceptable upper level follow on class] have a grade not older than 5 years at the time of matriculation.<a href=“And%20I%20know%20this%20because%20she%20was%20a%20non-trad%20applicant.”>/u</a> You need to check the admission pages and perhaps even contact the admission offices of schools you think you might apply to and see if they have this kind of limitation.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>In order to get a good feel for your chances, you need to sit down and calculate both cGPA (and include those original Fs and Cs you retook since AMCAS will) and your sGPA</p>

<p>Here is AMCAS official course classification guide</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/download/181694/data/amcas_course_classification_guide.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/students/download/181694/data/amcas_course_classification_guide.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And here is grid showing applicant and matriculant GPAs and MCAT scores for 2009-2011</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

5

<p>Just noticed one other issue–do you plan to complete your baccalaurate degree? </p>

<p>Most medical schools will not accept an applicant without one. The very last requirement before you are allowed to register for med school classes is producing a final transcript which shows you have earned your BA/BS degree.</p>

6

<p>Hi, thanks for the advice. I’ll try to address your questions one at a time.</p>

<hr>

<p>Have I taken an MCAT diagnostic exam?</p>

<p>No. Not yet. I have a typical MCAT study guide, which I’ve been periodically leafing through. Obviously, I will need much more preparation. My (over)confidence comes from the fact that, in all the prerequisites and science classes I took last year, I scored near-perfectly. My A’s have tended to be 99.9’s, not 93.1’s. It’s likely that I had the highest grade percentage in each of my five classes last semester.</p>

<p>I’ve encountered many of the highly-motivated super-students over the years (at both schools). They amaze me, and I don’t know how some of them manage to balance full-time classes with even more EC’s. But I think my age and experience give me an advantage over many of them. I have the discipline to spend 70 hours at school per week, and then go home and study more (this is basically what I did last semester). I can put distractions out of my mind. Additionally, even in my lazier semesters, I’ve always been a good test taker. </p>

<hr>

<p>When will I take the MCAT?</p>

<p>Depending on how my schedule works out, I would take the MCAT next summer at the earliest, since I still need to take organic and physics. It would be well before the 2015 change-over. </p>

<hr>

<p>Do I plan to complete my B.A. ? </p>

<p>Only seven more credits separate me from my bachelors degree in anthropology, so I’ll definitely be finishing that before grad school. The current plan is to remain at the CC for this coming year, where I will be finishing up pre-reqs for PA school: organic chem, physiology, microbiology, genetics, etc. This will leave physics as my only remaining pre-req for med school (unfortunately it won’t fit in my fall schedule, so I would need to take Physics I in the spring, and Physics II in the summer). Depending on how things work out, I would finish up at the four year school in either the following summer or fall. </p>

<hr>

<p>Would I be willing to consider Caribbean schools or DO programs?</p>

<p>I need to research this further, but my initial inclination is to say “yes.” I’m a non-traditional student. Why close off the non-traditional route now? </p>

<hr>

<p>What is my state residency? </p>

<p>I live in NY. </p>

<hr>

<p>Were any of my med school prereqs completed too long ago to count?</p>

<p>Nope. I just began taking the required science classes last year, so I should be in good shape there. </p>

<hr>

<p>Cumulative GPA and science GPA? </p>

<p>Thanks for the charts. I tried to calculate those GPA’s correctly in my first post. They’re probably about right. I wasn’t sure whether to include my first attempt at college algebra in the sGPA, so I calculated it both ways. I received an A in a 4 credit astronomy class, but didn’t include it in the sGPA because it was through the Geology department. Including that grade would bump up the sGPA to 3.688 (3.9143 w/o the 1st semester algebra fail). </p>

<hr>

<p>I hope that helps!</p>

<p>Mike</p>

7

<p>Include college algebra in your sGPA since it’s on your transcript and it’s designated as a math class.</p>

<p>Astronomy should be included in the sGPA because content usually trumps the department offering it. If AMCAS doesn’t like how you list it, it will change it for you.</p>

<p>Here’s a GPA calculator to help you.</p>

<p>[Calculate</a> Your GPA](<a href=“http://www.back2college.com/gpa.htm]Calculate”>http://www.back2college.com/gpa.htm)</p>

<p>Investigate carefully before you decide to attend a Carribean medical school. They have very high drop out rates and offer few support services to their students. Also as a FMG (Foreign Medical Graduate), you only have a 50% chance of matching into a US residency. You cannot receive a license to practice medicine in the US unless you complete a US residency. You would be much better off getting a DO or trying a SMP (Special Master Program). Or even completing a PA.</p>

<p>Since you are a NY resident you best chance at an MD acceptance will be at one the NY medical schools since the members of the adcom will be more familiar with the quality of your CC. </p>

<p>OOS adcoms will tend to discount your CC grades since it will look like you tried to duck the tougher competition that is presumed at 4 year college, especially in light of your mediocre SUNY grades. (Adcoms really do not like seeing med school pre-reqs from any CC unless there is additional upper level science coursework from a 4 college to support those grades.) </p>

<p>Adcoms will not care why you transferred back to a CC. (Family and personal crises really won’t cut it with adcoms. Medicine has a really tough guy mentality. You’re supposed to soldier on and do well no matter what your personal situation is.) OTOH, if you can tell a compelling story of your journey to medicine, it may get you an interview.</p>

<p>Anyway, you have interesting journey ahead of you. Good luck!</p>

8

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<p>Not a good plan for med school.</p>

<p>If you have any SUNY nearby, I would recommend taking Organic, physics and a bio course or two (molecular, cellular, biochem, genetics) at the four-year school. By performing extremely well, you will give adcoms some comfort level that you can compete at the next level.</p>

<p>Regardless of whether your cc is the top NYS feeder to Cornell, adcoms WILL discount those cc grades.</p>

9

<p>Bluebayou, </p>

<p>I definitely understand your point; how med schools would react to CC prereqs in my situation was the main reason I began this thread.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that make it hard for me to take the prereqs at my 4 year SUNY. First, I probably can’t afford it anymore (my Pell and NYS TAP grants have reached their limits; I have just enough room under the max student loan cap to cover next year at the CC) - especially when considering housing (I save money living with my parents at the moment). Second, the commute from home is a two hour round trip. I attempted this commute in the 2010-2011 school year, actually. The result: most of the bad grades that are now dragging down my GPA! It was my worst year, so I’m hesitant to try the long commute again, especially with organic and physics on the line. Third, I have some family issues that make it important for me to maximize my time spent near home.</p>

<p>The most realistic way for me to take the classes at the four year school would be to take this coming year off, save up some money, and re-enroll in Fall 2013. That would be a really big decision, and I haven’t learned enough to justify it yet.</p>

<p>It would just be so much easier if I could whip out two more sterling semesters at the CC, do well on the MCAT, take my final class at the 4 year school, and then find an MD program willing to take a chance on this non-traditional student.</p>

<p>It might not be a realistic wish. That’s what I’m here to find out.</p>

10

<p>Since finances are a huge issue for you, you need to know the process of applying to medical school is enormously expensive. (In terms of $$ alone, not just time and energy.)</p>

<p>Depending on the number of schools you apply to (and with your unusual record, you will need to apply to ~20-25 to help improve your odds of getting an interview), and where those schools are located, you will need between $4000-$10,000 to complete the process.</p>

<p>There are no loans or other financial aid available to pay for those expenses. </p>

<p>Fees include: MCAT fee ($235), AMCAS application fee ($60 for the first school; $35 for each additional); secondary fees ($25-$150 per school in addition to the AMCAS fee); interview apparel (suit with dress shoes); interview travel, including the costs of shuttles, taxis and car rentals to get from the airport/train depot to school site; meals and lodging while traveling; transcript fees; MCAT prep materials… </p>

<p>If you apply to any Texas schools, there will additional costs since none of them use AMCAS.</p>

11

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<p>Sure it would, and it would be easier to go back and take AP courses in HS. But you have some HUGE blemishes on your transcript which need to be addressed in the best way possible, and that is taking upper division courses at a 4-year Uni. Take it slower if you have to work. (Working to pay bills is a great EC, btw.)</p>