Non-US college and Med School

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I’m curious why @mom2collegekids and @MYOS1634 say don’t go OOS to Cal schools for premed? Is it because of the money, or is there grade deflation, or something else?

I think @MYOS1634 was really talking about going to med school in Cal rather than undergrad, right?
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No, @MYOS1634 is also saying not to go to OOS to a CA school for undergrad.

There are only negatives when an OOS premed goes to a CA undergrad. There are way tooooo many premeds in CA schools so the weeding is very harsh. Even after heavy weeding, there are about 4x as many CA applicants as there are CA med school seats. The competition to get into a CA med school or really to ANY med school as a Calif student is extremely intense.

There are only disadvantages to going to Calif for undergrad premed.

This is from about a year or so ago. Still very useful




California ~ unlucky state for premeds

Calif School of Medicine (SOM) numbers - 

Some numbers are rounded
SOM       applicants   IS app %     Matriculants      Instate (IS) Matriculants %

UCD      7200                  62%               110                99% (maybe the 1 OOS is MD/PhD)

UCI        6300                  73%               104             94% (maybe the 2 OOS are MD/PhD)

UCR       5700                   76%                50                100%

UCSD     7500                   59%                125              75%

UCLA-G  8600                  60%                151               83%  

UCSF       7500                  48%                165              75%

USC          8200                  51%               185               77%

Stanford   7200                 35%                90                  35%

Med schools interview roughly 5-10% of their applicants.

MD/PhD students included in above numbers....and can be from any state since NSF pays their tuition.

UCLA Drew not included...only 24 matriculants....mission driven.

The new private SOM CA Northstate is also not included.  Accreditation issues.

As you can see....Calif med schools have a problem of too many applicants, 
not nearly enough seats,....and most have a strong instate preference.



If your DD plans well, then she certainly can do a study abroad in another country. She’d just have to make sure that none of the classes she took there would be premed prereqs or really BCPM.

There are fine summer abroad programs that are led by American faculty, and the credits are US school based. One popular one at Alabama is “Oxford at Alabama,” where the students get UA credit, so those credits wouldn’t be an issue. The units are liberal arts anyway, so not an issue.

Please be aware that all schools are party schools. You get 18-22 year olds together and there will be sex, booze, parties. Even at MIT…even at Berkeley. That doesn’t mean that kids don’t care about their grades. Sure, maybe at some directionals kids care less about grades, but really at top 120 or so schools, kids care about their grades.

Since Catholic schools are ok, look at some of the better ones that give merit…

Creighton, SLU and Loyola Chicago have their own med schools and give merit. Marquette no longer has one (it’s now MCW), but it’s still a great school to attend as a premed. G’town doesn’t give merit, I don’t think.

I mentioned UDayton earlier, also look at Loyola-Maryland, Providence, Fordham.

I’d avoid the whole west coast actually.

It’s in the south, but Rhodes College is a very good choice, too. Merit plus the St. Jude’s Memphis opps.

:slight_smile: Great minds think alike apparently: I listed Rhodes above (with St Olaf).
St Olaf is a bit more “intellectual/wholesome” than Rhodes, which is a bit more preprofessional, but both are within the parameters you described originally and are excellent for premeds. Both have merit scholarships (application is due early so check the dates; St Olaf also has auditions for musicians and Rhodes for physics.
Seconding the colleges in #22.
Also look at the women’s colleges, Barnard, Smith, Mount Holyoke, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Smith, Agnes Scott, Scripps, Spelman - they all have different cultures so some may appeal to your daughter more than the others.
UDayton would be a great safety, wonderful campus and facilities.
Creighton would likely give your child a nice merit scholarship and it has an associated med school. :slight_smile: It’s not very “intellectual” but the students are very strong.

Yes, I meant for premed. California is terrible for premeds. Berkeley and UCLA are “bloodbaths” for premeds because all the kids are high-octane overachievers thrown together. They were all at the top of their high schools and suddenly only 10% of them will have med-school worthy GPA’s.

Weeding has two meanings:

  • intended weed-out: the class and the exams are designed to make a certain percentage fail and most students in the class will not have a “med-school worthy” grade. The students “weeded out” may well be strong, hard working students, who would have been able to “make it” in other environments.
  • “natural” weed-out, which is not “weed out” in the typical meaning: students realize after one semester of college biology or college chemistry that it’s much harder than they thought. The material is hard but there’s no strict curve (or a very high curve - Brown is known for being the best premed top school because being merely middle of the pack makes your GPA med-school worthy.) The students aren’t made to give up through artificial means (such as the above “weeding”) but through a natural process.

You want to avoid “intended weed-out” like the plague. Premeds need a collaborative environment with a lot of support (academic resources, adviser, tutoring…)

Thank you all so much for your input. Your advice has been invaluable, really. We would have totally made the mistake of applying to foreign schools, and Berkeley was one of her top 2 choices. You saved us from making some big mistakes. We really appreciate your other suggestions, we will definitely look into them! Thank you!!!

“foreign schools (other than Canadian) are now off the table.”

Given the title of the thread, and the fact that non-Canadian schools are off the table, I am wondering if someone should mention Canadian schools. The “Big Three” Canadian universities (McGill, Toronto, UBC) are nearly as expensive for international students as US private universities. Also, these three suffer from “grade deflation”, meaning that getting an A or even a B for example at Toronto is very difficult. While these are academically great universities, they might not fit the original description of what is needed in this case.

There are a large number of other very good universities in Canada, most of which are less expensive for international students than either full-pay US universities or the Big Three. One place to get some suggestions is the Maclean’s rankings (although rankings should always be taken with some skepticism). Their medical school rankings are here:
http://www.macleans.ca/education/unirankings/university-rankings-2017-medicaldoctoral/

Note that three of the universities on this list (Montreal, Laval, Sherbrooke) teach in French.

@melvin123 All experts have given enough feedback. Nevertheless let me clarify and inform few things as a parent whose D is a freshman (though she is in a different situation related to doing MD).

  1. If finance is a factor, why do you assume studying aboard is going to be economical than studying in US either as OOS in Public or Private schools?
  2. There are many schools which give free tuition if NMF and they are equally good for pre-med based on 2016-17 application cycle. Not top tiers and but still reasonable. Alabama 149 Oklahoma 106 Arizona 121 Kentucky 129 UT Dallas 145 Nebraska 99 Ole Miss 149 Houston 189 NJIT - Drexel
  3. Of course there are many other schools also give partial aid (merit). My D got partial aid Uof Rochester ($17k aid), CWRU ($28.5k aid), Pitt (full tuition). All 3 are good for pre-med and many opportunities for medical related during UG.
  4. My D can take the public transportation in 45 minutes to reach Berkeley and she got admitted but still she was not keen on going to UCB as a pre-med.
  5. CA is not the right place either for UG (if finance is a factor - expensive total cost) and for MD (if OOS). Even for IS getting in to CA Medical school is so hard and low %.
  6. Don't want to add more confusion. But have you thought of applying for BS/MD programs if she is clear medicine is her path? Both UAB and OU, NJIT, Drexel have from the above list. But it is a different ball game if already not started planning.

@melvin123

Yes I am referring to 34 ACT may not be good enough for Stanford, but since she is not interested, we are not going to discuss it further. I just want to say that to get in a 5% admit rate school, you need to win the lotto.

My guess is right, she had an eye on California, only OOS in CA will pay 60K for state schools. They are good schools, ucb and ucla or even ucsd. But if you are aware, the UC system is in a shamble, financially, they cut back on the UG classes, they admit more OOS students so they can get more money. The UC system is crammed with premeds and the classes are huge, you may or may not be able to graduate in 4 years, my nephew did not as a CS student in UCSD. It does not matter if you are good student or not, some classes they just have too many students and you cannot possibly sign up.

I have so many friends working in the UC system, including my wife is in CSU, that I am fully aware of the situate. Two of my extended family went to Stanford and I know that what takes to get in. One of my best friend is working in Stanford medical school, she had drawer full of applications with perfect scores and they reject them left and right. So, please, unless you are a tipy top student that can beat all odds in the UC system, don’t come here for premed.

In UAB, your D maybe a big fish in small pond, she could excel, a MD from UAB is just as good as a MD from Stanford, they all can become specialist, making the same money. And it will be almost FREE, compare to those going to med school in CA.,

@DadTwoGirls because of the exchange rate, McGill’s 60,000 CAD cost of attendance is 45,000 USD for us. That’s a lot better than the $65,000 plus cost of attendance for US schools. The 80k in savings is huge. If she were to go there, I’d watch the exchange rates and make sure to convert so I wouldn’t get stuck. But grade deflation is a huge problem, and that really matters. So now I guess McGill, UT and UBC are out. Wouldn’t the other Canadian universities have the same issue with grade deflation?

@GoldenRock … 1. I ran the numbers for various universities and applied the exchange rates. The foreign schools were cheaper than US private schools without aid, and cheaper than a lot of state schools as an OOS student. 2. I don’t know yet if she will be a NMF, but thanks for the info! 3. That’s really helpful to know. 4 & 5 I hear what you all are saying about the Cal undergrad schools and even though she loved Berkeley, I’m going to convince her not to apply. 6. She’s not 100 percent clear about medicine being her path. She also really likes CS. I’m pretty sure she is going to end up going the MD route, but she wants more academic flexibility at this point. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

@artloversplus we totally agree when it comes time for med school that UAB is her first choice. But who knows if she can get in? Sometimes in state is harder than private because of the tuition differences. At this stage, though, she is still in HS, and she wants to go to college outside of the South for a different experience. It’s just that it’s so darned expensive that I was looking for a workaround. My ‘clever’ idea had been for her to go to a foreign school, but that idea was crushed by the reality that if she wants to go to med school, it is a real hassle getting foreign school work approved, and there is a chance it won’t be approved, so it’s not worth it. Thank goodness the folks here let me know, and I appreciate everyone’s ideas for schools where she might qualify for merit aid and have a good track record with med schools.

Thanks again everyone.

“Wouldn’t the other Canadian universities have the same issue with grade deflation?”

Not to the same extent. I agree that $C60,000 is a lot better than $US65,000. However, you can probably get closer to $C30,000 or $C35,000 per year at some other less grade deflated Canadian universities. At today’s exchange rate that is pretty close to the cost of in-state public state universities.

At the risk of giving you too long a list, some that are probably worth considering (not including the “big 3”, and not including French universities):

  • Memorial University of Newfoundland
  • Dalhousie (Halifax, Nova Scotia)
  • Ottawa (in Ontario)
  • Queens (Kingston, Ontario)
  • McMaster (Hamilton, Ontario)
  • Western (London, Ontario)
  • Manitoba (Winnipeg, Manitoba)
  • Alberta (in Edmonton, Alberta)
  • Calgary (in Alberta)
  • Victoria (in British Columbia)

Newfoundland is the only Canadian province that I have never visited. I have heard however that it is a bit isolated and quite rainy/stormy much of the time. Ottawa is officially a bilingual university. I have heard that some students do ok there with only English. Manitoba is quite cold in the winter, as is Edmonton Alberta (which is way to the north of Calgary). The University of Victoria is the only one on this list that doesn’t have its own Medical School, but it is a very good university and cooperates with UBC to provide UBC’s medical school education. If you don’t like snow then Victoria has the best winters in Canada.

It might be worth seeing if other CC folks know to what extent there is grade deflation at these universities. Also I didn’t list smaller universities. For pre-med I am not sure to what extent there is an advantage of doing undergrad at a university that also has a medical school.

Most of these universities require Canadian citizenship or permanent residence for medical school. Therefore for most folks on CC they could only be considered for undergrad for those students who are going on to medical school.

By the way, I agree with watching the exchange rate and considering transferring enough to pay for 4 years of undergrad if it looks like the Canadian dollar is going to return to parity. I intend to do this considering that I live in New England and will have a daughter at university in Canada in September.

I was in Ottawa last Christmas and it was no problem not speaking French. My daughter loves snow and cold, so that’s not a problem for her. Where will your daughter be going to school? I’ve also heard that the University of Waterloo is terrific, but I think their reputation comes from their entrepreneurship and CS programs. Thanks for the list! It’s time to do more research!

@GoldenRock

Alabama is 109, not 149.


[QUOTE=""]
2016-17 application cycle. Not top tiers and but still reasonable. Alabama 149 Oklahoma 106 Arizona 121 Kentucky 129 UT Dallas 145

[/QUOTE]

@melvin123 I think you can find many good US colleges with less total cost than Canadian schools, if you do more research. You can check Baylor and if she wants snow try U of Minnesota (only $24k for OOS + R&B). Many public schools in Mid west you can find reasonable fees.
< $30K: , UofFlorda, OSU Ohio, Purdue, Iowa,
Around $30-35k: Georgia Tech, UNC, Urbana-Cha, UofWisconsin, PSU

https://www.baylor.edu/estimator/
https://admissions.tc.umn.edu/costsaid/tuition.html

Many private schools ranked 30-80 also will match diff of their tuition with your in state fees. Though they may not give full tuition, they will entice to match the net cost of your in state to attract to their school.

What ever I had I my excel sheet based on 2016 rankings of UAB. 2017 US news ranking is 159 for UAB. Agree UA @ T is 103 in 2017 ranking.

I think I’m starting to get overwhelmed! One problem with some of the big state schools is that they are often big sports schools and/or big Greek life schools, neither of which is a good fit for my child. And she wants to get out of the South for undergrad. You should have seen the expression on her face when we went to Penn State and drove past their football stadium!

So many good schools in the US for premed, why risk yourself to a foreign school in Canada? If you want cold, South Dakota is low cost and St Olaf is small LAC known for good premed. She will get good money from a school like Rochester and a D of my friend went there for much less than in state Berkeley. She loves it and now a Rhodes scholar in oxford.

For Northern schools, also think of Vermont, Maine, Syracuse, Loyola at Chicago, UC Boulder, U of U, too many to mention and you will be overwhelmed.

@melvin123 One final note. Some time it is hard to make final judgment based on1 visit. Though some schools are big on sports (or Greek), it does not matter if the student is focused on his/her goal. My D attends OU which is so big in sports but she has no interest in sports and enjoys the small college town. I am very familiar with U of Michigan which is again big in sports but UofM solid school in academics and students thrive there too. Do the research to filter and sort colleges in various web sites like US News or any other sites to meet your criteria’s. It is hard to be convinced about the reason to go to Canadian or Foreign schools due to cost and it is not a good path if there is any desire for medicine path in US. GL.

The whole thing about foreign schools started with me having angst about the total cost of higher ed once the med school discussion got thrown on the table. When I ran the numbers of total cost of attendance for private UG today is 260k, but then you add private med school at 350k, I’m looking at a little over 600k. Yikes!!! Even if I were able to get that money together, I question whether I am being a good steward of that money and started looking around at options. Favorite option was sending her to Scottish/Irish school for fabulous education and interesting experience for 80k savings. If she is so lucky to get into state med school, that would save an additional 200k, but we really can’t count on admission to just 1 school. Anyway, now I know that the Scottish/Irish schools aren’t an option.

I am still trying to find a balance between sending her to an excellent undergrad institution where her classmates would be interesting people who are her academic peers and would challenge her on the one hand, cost on the other. Before yesterday’s responses I had not given significant thought to the weed out factor, although I was always worried about schools with grade deflation. You have to wonder what arrogance those deflating schools have that lead them to believe their program is so special and renowned that everyone will know their B kid is really an A elsewhere; no, only people in academia will know, and even then many grad schools wont adjust for it. Those colleges are hurting their kids.

Anyway, I can see that I have a lot of thinking to do and may have been going about this all wrong. Part of me is still struggling with the concept of having her go to a school where she will be a superstar. From an educational standpoint I see tremendous value in going to a school with a bunch of interesting kids who are motivated and gifted and will challenge you. I think that will create a synergistic environment and you will learn a lot more than if you are the superstar among your peers. And, I’m concerned that if she decides not to go to med school or grad school, she would have been a lot better off with a terminal degree from a more prestigious school.

Thank you all for giving me food for thought and helping me to avoid mistakes. Honestly, though, I’m bummed my ‘great’ plan wasn’t so great.

Penn State doesn’t offer much aid at all ($4,500 if you get into the Honors College.) So 40k if she gets into their very selective honors college: you will get better even in the northeast. A 34 is quite valuable .
(And you’re right, she doesn’t need to retake. She may want to look into subject tests showing off her academic strengths though.)
Note however that kids in Schreyer are more into research than into partying (they even have a 24/7 quiet soundproof room for studying). Look up ‘The Globe’ or ‘Schreyer’.
This to say, not that she should apply, but that driving through may not reflect what actually goes on and especially not what the Honors College is like.
If she doesn’t want big sports then div 3 colleges may be best but don’t limit yourself.
Get her a Fiske Guide and/or Princeton Review 's best colleges. Have her read through ALL colleges in snow bound states (NE, Atlantic, Midwest). Have her put a post-it on ever one she likes, run the npc on each. If it’s affordable it goes on the list. If not, it stays off. You’ll thus create a long list.
In Pennsylvania, there’s Dickinson and Muhlenberg, both good for Premeds.