I thought Lennox didn’t show up because he knew there wasn’t a romantic place for him in Margaret’s life. I didn’t really see him being a matchmaker, but just being realistic about his chances with Margaret.
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You’re right - more of a realist rather than matchmaker.
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I’m not quite as cynical but Thornton’s love is definitely love-at-first-sight. Still it seems that Margaret continues to offend him, yet he persists in loving her. I’m more of a Pride and Prejudice aficionado, in which Darcy falls in love slowly but steadily.
I think Margaret comes to love Thornton because his kindness never wavers particularly during her mother’s illness. She comes to respect him first, partially because her father does.
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Talking about Pride and Prejudice… after Margaret confesses to Mr. Bell I thought - this sounds familiar:
I am not likely ever to see Mr. Thornton again……'But I believe I never shall. Still, somehow one does not like to have sunk so low in—in a friend’s opinion as I have done in his. I should not like to lose his respect, though we may never be likely to meet again.
Ahem…
“I know I shall probably never see him again, but I cannot bear to think that he is alive in the world and thinking ill of me.”
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Plagiarizing Jane Austen? I like the way Austen said it better. 
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I hit a few stumbling blocks along that line also. Margaret’s impassioned rejection of Thornton’s proposal reminded me of Lizzie Bennett’s to Darcy. I actually looked up P&P’s publication date, checking to see if it was published first. It was. I didn’t catch what you just posted though.
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@Marilyn, Mommy syndrome — yes. It’s not just Thornton and his mother; it’s Frederick and Mrs. Hale as well. The second-born daughters are grossly under-appreciated by their mothers (maybe deservedly so for Fanny, but who knows? — she’s a minor character and we don’t get a full picture of her). Mrs. Thornton gave me the heebie jeebies; she was a little too adoring of her son.
Margaret swoons because she’s a good girl who did a bad thing. Basically, her conscience knocks her flat. It’s an overly dramatic response (like other emotional reactions in the book — I view it as a Victorian literature thing). The same sin — a virtuous woman’s lie — is played for laughs in Oscar Wilde’s “An Ideal Husband.” Did anyone ever see / read that? The lie keeps the story bouncing along until the big confession at the end (“The truth is…I lied”). In the play, the adoring husband forgives his wife with the words, "Gertrude, you are to me the white image of all good things, and sin can never touch you.” I mention this because it seems that for a woman to lie (to a male authority figure, no less) was apparently utterly shocking in Victorian England.
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I absolutely figured out the Pride and Prejudice connection. P&P was published in 1813, and N&S was published in 1850. I can’t imagine that Gaskell wasn’t influenced by Jane Austen.
I liked the book a lot. I slogged through the beginning, but like others it picked up the second half. I liked Margaret. I think I understand why she turned down Henry Lennox - she didn’t love him, of course, but I could also see that she might not want to be always be so close with Edith. He was just kind of blah to me.
I really liked Mr. Thornton. Mr. Darcy presented himself as aloof and prideful. I don’t think that Mr. Thornton did that, but Margaret’s prejudice of someone in manufacturing had her unwilling to be associated with him.
I saw a definite parallel between Mrs. Thornton and Lady Catherine, although I definitely think that Margaret would have turned Mrs. Thornton because of her inheritance and later her goodness. There was also similarities between Darcy’s cousin Anne and Thornton’s sister’s personalities.
I am a great lover of Pride and Prejudice. I will definitely reread North and South because I did enjoy it. This was certainly better than Middlemarch!
I remember seeing North and South many years ago. The only scene that I remember was the one where they confronted the mob.
Anyway, thanks for picking this book. It was good.
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Re Pride and Prejudice, those similarities jumped out at me when I first saw the mini-series, and then again when I read the book. Gaskell was influenced by Austen and there are many compare-contrast articles out there. Austenised: Elizabeth Gaskell and Jane Austen
I don’t think of it as plagiarism, but as using a tried-and-true romantic trope. So many popular romances through the ages are basically the same plot, right? – adversaries to lovers. Everybody from Petruchio & Katherina to Captain von Trapp & Fraulein Maria.
My dad had to propose to my mom three times before she said yes. I guess such things go hand-in-hand with all the great love affairs. 
Pride and Prejudice is a pretty irresistible plot.
I really liked Mrs. Thorton. In a different age she’d have been running that factory. I really loved her response to Mrs. Hale when she is asked to look after Margaret. And I thought she treated Margaret fairly given the information she had. (And I’m pretty sure she was no happier with the dinner conversation about clothing and whatnot than Margaret was!)
I never had such charitable thoughts about Mrs. Thornton, but you’ve given me a new perspective. It’s true, she’s admirably honest–but not in a cruel way–with Mrs. Hale, and you’re absolutely right that “In a different age she’d have been running that factory.” I bet she wouldn’t have set up the worker lunchroom, though!
Like @mathmom, I liked Mrs. Thornton. She raised John as a single mom and has every right to be proud of him. It’s Margaret’s disdain of John at the beginning and later her rejection of him that solidifies Mrs. Thornton’s dislike of the girl. Mrs. Thornton seems rigid but fair. If John and Margaret have a happy marriage, then I believe Mrs. Thornton will soften toward her. If I remember correctly, she accepts Margaret’s quasi-explanation for what seemed undesirable behavior; she felt that Margaret was sincere in wanting her to know it wasn’t how it looked.
I don’t doubt Mrs. Thornton will watch every penny spent; tis way too ingrained in her past not to do so. My mother was a young young adult during the depression. She kept a close eye on her pennies till she died and she lived a long time. Not that she didn’t buy nice things she wanted but she always treated them with pride and care. It reminded me somewhat of Mrs. Thornton’s home. (And my mother would have walked rather than spend money on a coach when her feet could carry her just as well.)
And I think Margaret was the catalyst for the lunchroom by way of Higgins, though Mr. Thornton always seems fair to his workers in terms of work conditions.
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Not plagiarism of P&P but 1800s fan fiction. 
The top review on Goodreads consists of one sentence: “It’s Pride and Prejudice for Socialists.”
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Thornton’s attention to Mrs. Hale is only the first of many kindnesses that Margaret either witnesses herself or learns about from someone else:
- instructs the landlord to replace the gaudy wallpaper that Margaret so dislikes
- offers the carriage for Mrs. Hale’s funeral, then quietly attends himself; goes out of his way to attend her father’s funeral at Oxford
- meets with Nicholas when he learns of his long wait, befriends him, visits his home frequently — unthinkable for a “master”
- pursues the lunchroom plan when he sees what the Higgins family has been eating
- sends the older Boucher children to school
- overbuys and overspends at the auction of the Hale belongings (even bidding against himself, to the amusement of the crowd)
- protects his Irish workers — first prompted by Margaret, but then on his own, he steps out into the middle of the rioters and says, “Now kill me if it is your brutal will. There is no woman to shield me here."
- decides against the inquest, but this rescue of Margaret’s virtue is done after learning about Leonard’s terminal illness. The reason is “medical evidence not sufficient to justify it” — which (conveniently) happens to be the truth, so he’s not even doing anything particularly out of line.
I think Margaret is attracted to Thornton at the outset, even though she denies it. Right off the bat, she notes that his smile gives “the effect of sudden sunlight…coming in an instant and shining out of the eyes” — it "changed the whole look from the severe and resolved expression of a man ready to do and dare everything, to the keen honest enjoyment of the moment, which is seldom shown so fearlessly and instantaneously except by children.”
Margaret liked this smile; it was the first thing she had admired in this new friend of her father’s; and the opposition of character, showed in all these details of appearance she had just been noticing, seemed to explain the attraction they evidently felt towards each other.
I think she’s using some transference here — trying to explain away her own attraction thru her father. I also wonder if Margaret pushes down that attraction because her Victorian sensibilities make her fear the potential physicality of it. When she refuses Thornton’s proposal, Gaskell writes, “And so she shuddered away from the threat of his enduring love.” Interesting wording.
As for Thornton’s attraction to Margaret, yes, it’s love at first sight, but he then has ample opportunity to observe Margaret’s genuine goodness, which gives that love a foundation.
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Yes! Perfect description!
It is! I knew deep down I was a Socialist! 
I have an undying devotion to Mr. Darcy, but one of the things I like about the Mr. Thornton depiction is that he talks. A fair amount, actually. We learn his inner thoughts and we hear him express himself many times in conversation. Darcy is more of an empty vessel for the reader – more mystery about him, so we can imagine for ourselves what wonderful thoughts he’s thinking and how (nearly) perfect he is.
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I’ve been a part of this book club since 2009. While @Mary13 may or may not be a Socialist deep down, I’ve learned that without doubt she easily falls into the incurable romantic category.
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I’ve been following along the discussion without contributing anything! I had read this book and some of Gaskell’s other books many decades ago and vaguely remembered liking them.
I reread this book a few years ago and, while I enjoyed it then, I have no interest in reading a third time! Far too long and not written in a style that is conducive to easy comprehension.
From what I recall, I didn’t like Margaret much and Thornton, while admirable for many reasons, didn’t conform to my ideal of an 1800s romantic hero. Worthy, inspiring but stuffy and boring is how I had categorized him.
I really need to read the book again to add any value to the discussion but that is very unlikely.
I may watch the series as a refresher since we do have a Britbox subscription.
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My feeling while reading the book was Margaret did not want to fall for Thornton because she felt he was below her station. I agree there was always an attraction, but Margaret needed time to mature and get to know Thornton before she was able to push aside her caste system.
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I blame any lingering attachment to the caste system on Margaret’s mother, who seemed fairly class conscious. In this way–if not all ways–Margaret needs to be more like her father (and I think she gets there):
Mr. Hale treated all fellow-creatures alike: it never entered into his head to make any difference because of their rank.
Speaking of how one’s fellow creatures are treated, I ran across this quote from Mrs. Thornton. Thinking of Margaret, she muses to herself:
“You’ve a pretty good temper of your own. If John and you had come together, he would have had to keep a tight hand over you, to make you know your place.”
I don’t think that will be the balance in John and Margaret’s relationship (at least the incurable romantic in me hopes not 
). I also don’t think Margaret has much of a temper, does she? Except for during the riot – we do see it come out then:
“Mr. Thornton,” said Margaret, shaking all over with her passion, “go down this instant, if you are not a coward. Go down and face them like a man. Save these poor strangers, whom you have decoyed here. Speak to your workmen as if they were human beings. Speak to them kindly. Don’t let the soldiers come in and cut down poor-creatures who are driven mad. I see one there who is. If you have any courage or noble quality in you, go out and speak to them, man to man.”
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Mary 13:
“I don’t think that will be the balance in John and Margaret’s relationship (at least the incurable romantic in me hopes not 
). I also don’t think Margaret has much of a temper, does she? Except for during the riot – we do see it come out then:”
I can’t recall any other times where Margaret’s temper got the best of her.
As far as John and Margaret’s relationship, I don’t see it as a traditional, reflective of the times, type of relationship. John was raised by a strong woman, so he is well prepared to live with another one.
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