Are you in the mood for love…and social justice? Our February selection is North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell, an 1854 British novel that examines worker’s rights and class struggle in industrial England, while simultaneously weaving in an irresistible love story.
After moving from her country home to a town in the north of England, protagonist Margaret Hale learns of the poverty and suffering of local mill workers and becomes passionate about improving their working conditions. Along the way, she clashes with stern mill owner John Thornton, resulting in what one reviewer described as "a skillful synthesis of Dickensian social commentary and Austenian romance.”
If you have no intention of reading a 19th century British novel, then treat yourself to the 2004 BBC series instead. Per Wikipedia, hours after the first episode of “North and South" aired in November 2004, "the message board of the program’s website crashed because of the number of visitors the site was receiving, forcing host BBC Online to shut it down.” The mini-series is faithful enough to the novel that you can watch it and join us for discussion, and I swear we’ll never know.
I started reading shortly after Christmas and it’s moving right along. I like that we tackle a classic on occasion, as I don’t generally pick one up otherwise.
I’m looking forward to the upcoming discussion. Happily finishing the book shouldn’t be an issue.
Understandable! It’s a challenge, especially the conversations in the local dialect. The BBC mini-series with Richard Armitage and Daniela Denby-Ashe goes down a whole lot easier – I think you’ll love it if you can find it anywhere to watch.
I finished it last week. ‘Twas a bit of a chore (yes, especially with the local dialect in conversations), but I’m glad to have persevered. Had a bit of good luck timing, having a breezy book on library Hold come available the next day. Could not have done another Gaskell back to back.
I gave up; didn’t like any of the characters and had no investment in the plot. I’ll follow the conversation and probably feel guilty about not finishing but…
@Marilyn, do check out the mini-series! That’s how I was first introduced to the story. I liked it so much that I picked up the novel, and since I had all those people in my head (with Richard Armitage front and center ), the book really came to life for me.
It’s February 1st! Welcome to our discussion of North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell. I know this was a hard slog for many of you, and all I can say in my defense is that I’m not alone in my love for this book. North and South afficiandos can be found in abundance on the internet. I may be crazy, but I’ve got company.
I like Margaret Hale’s strength, devotion to family, disregard of social class, and ease in expressing herself on issues that would never have seen the light of day in Lady Catherine de Bourghs’s drawing room. I like John Thornton’s struggle to be a fair man, his willingness to change, his quiet generosity, and his full-on love of Margaret. He doesn’t do things by halves, whether it’s battling a strike with everything he has or loving a woman almost obsessively.
A reviewer somewhere—can’t remember which one—wrote that the novel was also an agape love triangle between Nicholas Higgins, Margaret Hale and John Thornton — meaning not romantic love, but complex friendships that grow slowly and become intertwined. Mr. Thornton tells a story about Nicholas at one point that starts, “So I spoke to my friend — or my enemy --” but ends with Nicholas only referred to repeatedly as “my friend.” These two men should not have been friends, but they are. Margaret should not have been regularly visiting Nicholas’ home (to her Aunt Shaw’s later dismay) or inviting him to hers, but she does. (I would add that the chemistry between all three characters is captured really well in the mini-series.)
The happy ending notwithstanding, North and South has an undercurrent of darkness to it. (Elizabeth Gaskell once joked that she should have named it Death and Variations). Yet Margaret’s losses help mold her character, and the way the deaths come one upon the other is more true than not — I bet a few of us have endured condensed years where we lost our parents, aunts, uncles, and friends of their generation all around the same time. Margaret is young and it hits her hard; as Mr. Bell says, “The instability of all human things is familiar to me, to you it is new and oppressive!"
Those are my opening thoughts (but I have more ).
Below are some discussion questions for those who are interested.
Did you enjoy “North and South?” Did you read the book or listen to the audiobook by Juliet Stevenson? How did you feel reading a passionate love story amid such serious themes?
What was your favorite part of the book? Your least favorite?
Do you have any favorite quotes, chapters, or passages? Share!
In many ways, North and South is a novel with numerous social themes - themes related to nostalgia, religion, conscience, classism, education, female independence, and more. What themes stood out to you?
Why do you think the book is titled “North and South?”
Do you think Margaret romanticized Helstone? Why? Do you think she ever changed her view of her hometown? Do you find yourself also romanticizing the past?
What did you think of Mr. Hale’s religious dilemma? Would you have made the same choice?
Why do you think Margaret disliked Mr. Thornton at first? Do you believe her dislike was reasonable or no?
There is a lot of death in the novel. Did you find that hard to read? Or did you find it true to the Victorian time it was written?
Charles Dickens was Elizabeth Gaskell’s editor, and they had a famously complicated relationship. Do you see Dickens’ influence on the book? In what way?
How did you feel about Gaskell’s writing style? How do you think it compares to other writers from the 19th century? Besides Dickens, some have compared North and South to Charlotte Bronte and even to Jane Austen. Do you see any similarities between Gaskell and these other writers? How is Gaskell unique from them?
How much did you love John Thornton? Who wants a Mr. Thornton of their own? Kidding aside, what did you think of how Mr. Thornton handled his business? Did you like his evolution as a character?
Did you relate to Margaret Hale? She certainly evolves a lot throughout the novel and overcomes her prejudices as she discovers her own values. Some critics in the 20th century argued that Margaret as a character, and by extension Gaskell’s novel, helped pave the way for vocal feminism. Margaret, for example, spoke out about political issues that differed from popular views in Victorian times. What are your thoughts on this? Do you agree that this is an essential industrial novel that helped women have more of a voice in the future?
Would you recommend this book to others? Would you read more Elizabeth Gaskell books? If you’ve read other Gaskell novels, which ones would you recommend to others?
Were you surprised by any plot points in the book? Did you like the ending?
A mash-up of questions from a couple of North and South online read-alongs:
There’s much talk about all the deaths in this book. What are your feelings on that? Do you think they were necessary? Or too much?
Why do you think Margaret turned down Henry Lennox so quickly? What do you imagine marriage to him would have been like?
Compare the two mothers, Mrs. Thornton and Mrs. Hale. Do you think Gaskell tends to be overly harsh in her depiction of the parents’ generation?
What do you think about the riot and how Margaret and Mr. Thornton each reacted?
Do you think Boucher’s anger and actions were justified?
Did you like Frederick? Were you sympathetic to his predicament?
Do you think Margaret was justified in being so anguished over the lie that she told? Did it mostly have to do with her feelings for Mr. Thornton? Or something else?
At what point do you think Margaret’s feelings for Mr. Thornton began to shift?
Discuss the character of Nicholas Higgins. What do you think about the relationship he has with Mr. Thornton? Did he change Mr. Thornton? Did Mr. Thornton change him?
Was Bessie Higgins a realist or a fatalist? Why were she and Margaret so drawn to one another?
How does Mr. Thornton’s view on the master/worker relationship evolve? Or. . .does it ? Did your view on this issue change as you experienced this book?
What are your thoughts on the about-face Margaret and Mr. Thornton have with regard to their financial status?
I noticed a new thread about nurturing intellectual wellness. I mentioned the CC Book Club because the choice of book and the discussions certainly do that for me. I like when we occasionally dip into a classic like North and South. I’ve been curious ever since @Mary13 mentioned it as a favorite book but knew I wouldn’t read it without it being chosen for discussion. Was it a quick and easy book to read? Nope. Am I glad I read it? Yes.
The classics we’ve visited - or revisited - over the years stretch my reading simply by the way they’re written. I’ve also noted that classics reflect the times in which they’re written in a way that historical fiction can’t quite capture. Certainly North and South would read differently if written by a current author; it would most likely be an easier read. On the other hand, would it capture the setting as Gaskell does? Doubtful.
I, like ignatius, am very happy to have the CC Book Club stretch my reading selections. This was a book I’d never heard of until Mary brought it up. I had trouble getting into it because I found Margaret and her family so irritating. I actually would not say that Margaret had a “disregard of social class”. She seems to think certain classes (peasants, workers) are worthy of being helped, but others (manufacturers any one in trade) is to be despised. IRC even her father thinks she takes her attitude too far. If this novel had been a historical novel I’d have complained that there was no way Margaret would have been walking around the slums and making friends with the downtrodden. (But then I remember I wrote a paper in college about the settlement movement and how women authors like Louisa May Alcott and Annie Fellows Johnston brought those ideas to their readers. Something that I also think was part of Gaskell’s agenda.)
Anyway, thankfully, as in Pride and Prejudice, both Margaret and John, do grow and change and learn to appreciate the good in each other. I did like Nicholas and it was quite amusing to see how he was cast in the TV show.
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