<p>Holy Cross offers merit-based scholarships to outstanding high school graduates who will major in the Classics at Holy Cross. Each year they award two Bean Scholarships, which are four-year, full-tuition, merit-based scholarships. Every four years they award one FitzGerald Scholarship, a four-year, full-tuition, merit-based scholarship (the FitzGerald Scholarship was awarded last year to a student in the Class of 2009).</p>
<p>D is not very religiously oriented, and a bit at odds with the Catholic church in particular because of its stands on things like abortion and gay rights. I doubt she'd seriously consider attending a college with a name like Holy Cross. But I'm curious: is there a strong religious edge to the school? How would more secular-minded students fit in, especially those with strong views on social issues at odds with church teaching?</p>
<p>Holy Cross is not heavily Catholic, if anything it is considered way too liberal by conservative Catholics. Last Fall, the local bishop threathened to take away their Catholic status because they leased their facility to a Teen Pregnancy Conference that included some pro-Abortion groups. They also have had the Vagina Monologues which many Catholic colleges have banned. Both Holy Cross and BC are run by the same New England Province of Jesuits.</p>
<p>Interesting to see the Gourman and Ruggs lists side-by-side. I'm not inclined to put much weight on either of these because as I understand it they're both quite subjective and non-transparent in their methodology. But it's noteworthy that only 12 schools make both lists: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Michigan, North Carolina, Bryn Mawr, Columbia, Penn, Stanford, Chicago, Duke, and Johns Hopkins. Formidable contenders, indeed.</p>
<p>But a bunch of really good schools make the Gourman list but not Ruggs, including Cal-Berkeley, Texas, Brown, Cornell, and UCLA. Very curious.</p>
<p>Very curious in the other direction, too, as Ruggs lists but Gourman excludes such luminaries as Barnard, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Tufts, and Williams. What to make of it? Maybe it just highlights how subjective these listings are. On the other hand, the Gourman + Ruggs overlap is a pretty interesting group: at its core is the usual HYPS+ crowd, but also several less obvious candidates including Michigan, North Carolina-Chapel Hill, Bryn Mawr, and Johns Hopkins, all schools that various posters here (and other in private communications) have recommended favorably. Thanks, all, this is quite helpful!</p>
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<p>The Gourman criteria favor universities. The Rugg's criteria favor LACs. Together, they make a pretty good list. Gourman is actually pretty explicit about criteria but Rugg's is not.</p>
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<p>
The same would hold true for Boston University, naturally. Take the archaeology department, for example. Anyone who knows anything at all about Egyptian, Greek, or Near Eastern archaeology has heard of Kathryn Bard, James Wiseman, and Paul Zimansky. BU serves as the home of ACOR and ASOR and publishes four major archaeological journals.</p>
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<p>My kid is a Classics major at Michigan and in the Residential College (LAC environment within the larger university). The RC has a strong language requirement, with intensive Latin as an option. The Classics dept. is small, and the professors, stellar. In both the Classics dept. and the RC there's mentoring, interesting academic opportunities, and an intellectual ambience. Also Ann Arbor really is a great college town. We were a little concerned about choosing a big public school, but it was a great choice.</p>
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<p>lil35,</p>
<p>I second your appraisal of Michigan. I'd love to see my D go there, especially if she gets into the honors program or RC. Just seems like a match made in heaven, and not only because it's alma mater to both Mom & Dad. The Classics dept is truly outstanding, she likes the town a lot, likes the people she met there, and as a Michigan philosophy grad I know full well the advantages of being in a small undergrad major with a large & stellar faculty, an unbeatable combination in my book. But it's ultimately her decision, not mine, and she's strongly inclined toward the Northeast where she grew up before we resettled in the Midwest. Also she seems to think it would be "strange" (her word) to attend the same school as both Mom & Dad, as if she's just repeating our lives instead of leading her own.</p>
<p>Any tips on how to get a prospective student to think beyond geographical and/or anti-legacy bias, or do you just roll with the punches on this stuff? BTW, she has said she'll apply to Michigan as a back-up if her top choices don't come through, and Michigan's rolling admissions process is attractive in that regard because you can know from early on whether you've got a spot there in your back pocket.</p>
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<p>
[quote]
Any tips on how to get a prospective student to think beyond geographical and/or anti-legacy bias, or do you just roll with the punches on this stuff?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What finally worked for us was to stop visiting alma mater with her. Instead, we gave her the car keys, a tank of gas, and told her to line up a couple of friends for her first high school "road trip" -- the college is about a 3.5 hour drive or so. Going for a visit without us allowed her to give the place as shot as potentially "her" school, not ours.</p>
<p>If you live close enough to Ann Arbor, spring for tickets to a good concert there this summer or early next fall and send her off. It's good practice for being a college student, anyway.</p>
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<p>bclintonk,</p>
<p>I probably wouldn't have wanted to go to my parent's alma mater either come to think of it.</p>
<p>I think we just have to roll with the punches and trust their instincts to know what feels right to them. The most important thing I learned about choosing a college is that you never know how someplace will strike you until you've actually visited--and you never know about admissions. Oh and sitting in on a Greek class proved to be a good idea.</p>
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<p>I decided not to go to my parents alma mater mostly because it was their alma mater. my mom never stopped talking about her amazing professors and her amazing friends. I loved the school, but really felt like i would be following my parents if i went. </p>
<p>to answer the question: Isn't Saint Johns one of the best schools for classics? i have a distant cousing there, from what my parents tell me, he loves it. I belive they read everything in greek and latin--reading Euclid to learn geometry. pretty cool.</p>
<p>St. John's is not a particularly good school for people who are seriously interested in classics. The Greek taught there is rudimentary at best, and they read their Euclid and so on in English. They also don't teach German, which is as important as Greek and Latin if you want to do research in classics. OTOH if you entered St. John's already knowing both languages, the education it furnishes would hardly hurt you.</p>
<p>1994 NRC rankings are based on grad and fairly out of date. I also think the fact that Princeton hurries its grad students through the pipeline is hurting its representation here. Look how low its score is compared to Michigan directly above.</p>
<p>1 Harvard 4.79
2 Cal Berkeley 4.77
3 Michigan 4.54
4 Princeton 4.16
5 Yale 4.12
6 Brown 4.10
7 Chicago 4.00
8 Texas 3.92
9 UCLA 3.89
10 Columbia 3.86
11 North Carolina 3.81
12 Cornell 3.73
13 Penn 3.62
14 Bryn Mawr 3.48
15 Duke 3.37
16 Stanford 3.32
17 Illinois 3.02
18 Virginia 2.98
19 Wisconsin 2.92
20 Washington 2.89
21 Ohio State 2.60
22 Cal Santa Barbara 2.59
23 Johns Hopkins 2.52
24 Minnesota 2.43
25 NYU 2.33
26 Boston University 2.31
27 Cincinnati 2.10
28 Fordham 1.83
29 Catholic University 0.93</p>
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<p>
[quote]
Any tips on how to get a prospective student to think beyond geographical and/or anti-legacy bias, or do you just roll with the punches on this stuff?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think you already answered your own question. The reaction to a specific college is often visceral, immediate, definitive even if it is also logic-defying.</p>
<p>For example we spent a great weekend in Ann Arbor. The first time that our son (who grew up overseas) had ever set foot on an American college campus. He was charmed, invigorated, possibilities opened up. Spending four years with tens of thousands of kids like him! Wow!</p>
<p>Our next stop was Kenyon. Suddenly the whole concept of an insular small liberal arts college came into sharp focus. After that the die was cast, the path was cleared. He knew immediately what he wanted and we didn't visit any more mega-sized universities.</p>
<p>Michigan wasn't such a good choice for me at the time, but I nevertheless received an excellent education that has served me well over the years and I would have supported my son's interest had he leaned toward big. As it turned out he chose a different style of learning and a different atmosphere. For me, learning about LACs was the eye-opening experience. I virtually didn't know the difference between Williams, Wesleyan and Wellesley. So even though I helped guide the research process, it was my son's emotional radar that led the way.</p>
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<p>oops-error
deleted post</p>
<p>bc -</p>
<p>I cross referenced with NRC Ph.D. program strength, and sure enough, Brown and Bryn Mawr are the smallest that appear to have very strong graduate programs.. then of course Cornell and Columbia. This bodes well for her ability to continue going forward with classics into grad level courses by junior year if she chooses:</p>
<p>1 Harvard 4.79
2 Cal Berkeley 4.77
3 Michigan 4.54
4 Princeton 4.16
5 Yale 4.12
6 Brown 4.10
7 Chicago 4.00
8 Texas 3.92
9 UCLA 3.89
10 Columbia 3.86
11 North Carolina 3.81
12 Cornell 3.73
13 Penn 3.62
14 Bryn Mawr 3.48
15 Duke 3.37
16 Stanford 3.32
17 Illinois 3.02
18 Virginia 2.98
19 Wisconsin 2.92
20 Washington 2.89
21 Ohio State 2.60
22 Cal Santa Barbara 2.59
23 Johns Hopkins 2.52
24 Minnesota 2.43
25 NYU 2.33
26 Boston University 2.31
27 Cincinnati 2.10
28 Fordham 1.83
29 Catholic University 0.93</p>
<p>I know for one that Johns Hopkins has a top ten program in Classics and Classical languages. I don't know how outdated your NRC list is...but I know JHU Classics is strong, if not very strong.</p>
<p>Classics and Classical Languages - 2007</p>
<p>Chronicle</a> Facts & Figures: Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index</p>
<p>1 Columbia U.
2 Brown U.<br>
3 U. of Cincinnati
4 CUNY System
5 Yale U.
6 U. of Wisconsin at Madison<br>
7 U. of Washington<br>
8 Johns Hopkins U.
9 Princeton U.<br>
10 Stanford U.</p>
<p>Oops.... for some reason I did not see pages 2-4 of this post... my post above is duplicative of a couple of others.</p>
<p>Phead128 -- the list is from 1994. It is supposed to be updated and published again in September/October of this year. In 14 years I would expect to see some movement, for sure.</p>
<p>Anyway, good luck.</p>
<p>bc - would you pay in-state tuition at UM? If so, figure out some way to funnel some of the financial savings represented by UM to her. If grad school is in the offing, work that into the equation.</p>
<p>Holy Cross has a great reputation for Classics.</p>
<p>^^ No, we'd pay OOS tuition at Michigan, but by my calculation (and owing to some non-cash producing but valuable assets passed down to my wife by her family) we're unlikely to get need-based aid at a private school, so the cost is roughly the same.</p>
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