Northeast Environmental Science college tour

College Search & Selection
21

<h1>5 and #9</h1>

<p>bigp9998
Middlebury was one of the schools I first suggested to my daughter when we first started planning this tour in early April. When she had time to go through my suggestions after school ended, and before she started on her current trip, I had hoped she would eliminate eight to twelve schools from the list. She eliminated five, three of them not big surprises (Susquehanna, St. Lawrence, and Hartwick), two of them were surprises (Middlebury and Clark). I asked her to double check both schools, she did and confirmed that she didn't want to visit them. We did not sit down and go over in detail her reasons for her decision.</p>

<p>monrath
Early on in our plans for her spring tour my daughter decided that a minor in Environmental Science/Studies was not sufficient, and that the criteria should be an active major. This eliminated three schools that would otherwise be of great interest to that tour: Haverford, Bryn Mawr, and Swarthmore. When I read Williams web pages on their "concentration" on Environmental Studies, Center</a> for Environmental Studies, to me it read closer to a minor in that area than a major. Maybe I misinterpreted their description, but given the number of schools we already had on the list I was glad to eliminate almost any school, particularly one that I viewed as an extreme reach. At any rate I did not suggest the school to my daughter.</p>

<p>Given that you brought up Williams I am surprised you didn't also bring up Amherst. They are so often discussed together. That was on my list for my daughter, and she did not eliminate it, but she was far more enthusiastic about the programs at Dartmouth, Dartmouth and Amherst are often viewed a fairly similar, and I decided that Dartmouth would be the one we would visit.</p>

<p>As to eliminating the schools that don't meet my daughter's criteria she has an explicit criteria of attending a small school, and an implicit one of wanting flexibility and variety that are more often found at a larger school. The schools she was most enthusiastic about in terms of programs were Dartmouth, University of Vermont, Wellesley, Rensselear, and an HYPSM school that we both agreed was out of reach. Rochester, Brandeis and Tufts ranked comparable to Wheaton, Brown, and Hamilton. She needs to see a variety of schools up close to have a conscious feeling for her trade-offs.</p>

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<h1>9 momrath</h1>

<p>The national laws, and I suspect all colleges in the USA, consider an Hispanic to be someone with ancestry that can be traced back to a citizen of Latin American country, probably without an intervening citizenship in a country outside the Western Hemisphere. My daughter is no more considered a URM than is the child of a French, Italian, German, or English citizen. My wife is philosophically happy with this, but I am financially unhappy with this. Given our income, more than $130,000/year, we do not expect much aid based on need for this daughter, but we might get some aid when the other one goes to school.</p>

<p>C'est la bureaucracy.</p>

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<p>Re Williams -- You are right you have too many choices so why add another, but I would want to clarify that Environmental Studies is a bonafide major at Williams. They call it a concentration instead of a major because it is a inter-disciplinary program that draws on several departments for graduation requirements. One of my son's close friends was in the program and as a seriously green individual he gave it high marks. The Berkshires community in general is a "hotbed" of environmental activism -- a very exciting place to be for someone with a make-a-difference attitude.</p>

<p>I didn't bring up Amherst because I thought given her horseback riding interest -- and some of her other campus choices -- that a more rural environment would be desirable. Amherst is a wonderful school, though, and within spitting distance of Holyoke, so if she's still adding, by all means visit. </p>

<p>Dartmouth, Amherst and Williams have many overlaps in applicants and a lot of similarities in character. The points of differentiation are there, however. The major reason that my son prefered Williams to the other two was Williams depth and vitality in the arts. He also considered its size and rural location to be positives. </p>

<p>As far as your daughter's ethnic make-up -- use it to her advantage. I know that Spanish heritage isn't in the same category as Nicaraguan for example, but don't underestimate the appeal of diversity of all types -- not just racial -- especially at non-urban, non-ivy league schools. Being from a mixed heritage family -- even if both are European -- can be a plus, especially if language fluency or cultural exposure is involved. Diversity figures on a lot of different levels: racial, ethnic, sexual, economic, cultural, geographic, national -- and all can provide an edge (if not strictly a hook). The colleges look at is as "what can this person" contribute to the campus community? And in the case of small, rural colleges that have a hard time attracting diversity, they blur definitions somewhat.</p>

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<h1>6 bigp9998</h1>

<p>I have trouble interpreting the effect of standardized test scores on the probability of admission. In particular, for the colleges I have looked at the mid 50% ranges for the SAT I test score submitted by admitted students, when used to estimate equivalent composite ACT scores using the SAT/ACT concordance SAT-ACT</a> Concordance Tables, can give very different numbers from the reported 50% range ACT scores for the same schools. For those schools the reported ACT ranges are consistently less than the values predicted from the SAT ranges using the concordance. I can think of two (non-exclusive) possible cause of this: the concordance is in error, or for these schools weaker students are more likely to submit ACT scores and stronger students are more likely to submit SAT scores.</p>

<p>I have several possible methods of interpreting these test scores in terms of probability of admission. If I take the straight SAT I scores and look at the 50% ranges for the top twenty schools, she is typically well below to just below the 25% level. Under this interpretation she has no chance of admission without outstanding ECs (which she does not have, though they are a good match for her major) and an outstanding essay (which she has not yet written). If I take her ACT score and compare it to ranges predicted from the reported 50% SAT I range using the concordance, she is typically just below to well above the 25% level. An outstanding essay may be sufficient. If I take her ACT score and compare it with the reported measured 50% ACT ranges, she is often above the 50% level, and a very good, but not outstanding, essay may be sufficient.</p>

<p>Other things to note:</p>

<p>Her score of 1330 (CR+M) on her SAT I was about what she expected based on her practice tests. This is interpreted as placing her (barely) in the top 10% of admissions.</p>

<p>Her two practice ACT tests gave consistent scores of 30, slightly better than her SAT scores according to the concordance.</p>

<p>Her actual ACT score, 32, is interpreted using the concordance as equivalent to an SAT I (CR+M) score over 1400, and, I have trouble believing this, she is considered in the top 1-2% of college admissions.</p>

<p>Her SAT II scores (mid 600s) are reported as suggesting she is an average admitted student. I think that is an oversimplification. I suspect that her score is close to the median among admitted students that took the tests, but I also suspect those who took the tests were a better than average subset of the set of admitted students. However I don't believe they were largely in the top 2 or 3% of admitted students.</p>

<p>FWIW in the subject area tests her scores were
SAT I: 680(CR), 650(M), 720(W)
ACT: 27 (English), 32(Mathematics), 34 (Reading), 34 (Science)
Given her the SAT I scores, I am surprised her lowest ACT score was in English, and not in mathematics.</p>

25

<p>You should include UNH, it has an excellent Env Sci program. Good location, too, one hour north of Boston. There's a train station on campus.</p>

26

<p>LtPWow- my kids felt the same way. The thought of being in a fairly remote town would drive them crazy. Neither one of my kids went to school in a thriving cosmopolitan area- but Ithaca is considered a good size college town with lots to do- and even Cortland is very accessible (within 45 minutes) to Syracuse, Ithaca and Binghamton. So neither one of my kids felt trapped.</p>

27

<h1>7 CurrySpice</h1>

<p>I do consider Connecticut College a match and not a safety. </p>

<p>We are considering Dartmouth for more than its name. My daughter loved what she saw of its programs on the web. After thinking about the apparent discrepancy between the ACT and SAT scores when compared using the concordance tables, I have decided that most of the discrepancy is due to the state university systems in the middle of the US requiring ACT, while the east coast states generally require the SAT. I think most of the difference is due to the attempt to get geographic diversity, and that will benefit my daughter. I now consider Dartmouth to be be a very far, but not an extremely far, reach for her. If she likes Dartmouth, and she gets an SAT CR+M superscore very near or above 1400, I will encourage her to apply. </p>

<p>I have had mixed feelings about UVM. Compared to other state universities it is relatively expensive for OOS, and it is not rated as highly as some of those other state schools. Also it is much larger than my daughter's current idea of an ideal school, and I would prefer a larger percentage of foreign nationals in its student body. Still it is rated better than the New Mexican schools, is cheaper than most of the other schools we are visiting (even without merit aid), and is a reasonable safety if she likes it in spite of its size. For the last week of our tour, I had already decided to drop the visit to Colgate. I am now considering dropping the visit to Rochester, and starting the trip with a visit to UVM. Its still a bit crazy in terms of schedule though.</p>

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<h1>8 brainspan</h1>

<p>I have decided to do two things to make it easier to keep things straight. My youngest daughter will take photographs so that the rest of us can focus on the moment. (She's also the better photographer.) The older one will take some notes during the visit, and organize and expand on them in the evening. She's relatively well organized on these sort of things, and often complains that she goes crazy if she isn't busy. This will keep her from going crazy for that reason, and may teach her to be careful about saying things like that.</p>

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<h1>10 and # 11 Particle_Man</h1>

<p>Northeastern is a non-starter. If I can't get her to consider Barnard, which is about the size she wants, has a better academic reputation, a fencing team, and an equestrian team with facilities that look like they are less than an hour's drive away (her current lessons are about 1:15 away), I will not try to get her to consider a center city university almost ten times her ideal size, with no fencing or equestrian teams.</p>

<p>As to Worcester, my daughter is an introvert who lives in a relatively small community with few activities and seems to be happy. She needs a school with a reasonable variety of clubs (equestrian in particular) to keep her busy, and start her group of friends. She will want access to books, but Amazon can provide that if necessary. I will encourage her to do volunteer work and a city like Worcester should provide opportunities there. She would probably prefer to have hiking areas a short drive away, but they will not have to be right at her doorstep. I was glad to hear they have a Friendly's nearby. Cheap food and good ice cream are a better excuse for a get together than beer. I loved Friendly's when I grew up back east, and my daughters enjoyed visiting one during a visit with my siblings last year. If she likes Colby, and doesn't mind Worcester, then we will also move Bates and Lehigh higher up in her preference list. She may decide she doesn't like Worcester, or the environment of a Jesuit school, but we will know better what to avoid.</p>

<p>I have decided to make Brandeis an option that will probably not be taken. At lunch Friday after touring Wellesley, we will take a vote in this order</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Should we tour another college that afternoon. Any of my oldest daughter, my wife, or myself will have a veto. If, in the unlikely event that we decide to visit another one, we will choose between Brandeis, Tufts, and MIT (for the fun of it as it supposedly has the best college tours). If my wife and oldest daughter agree on the school they choose, otherwise I do.</p></li>
<li><p>Otherwise should we further examine Wellesley or tour Boston. Majority, including my youngest and my Mother-in-law, rule. My guess is we will end up touring Boston.</p></li>
</ol>

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<h1>12 zoosermom</h1>

<p>I hadn't hear of the Southhampton Campus of Stony Brook before this. Thank you for mentioning it. The program sounds interesting. I consider it too far out of the way to visit on this tour. While I will mention it to my daughter I suspect it will not interest her. It appears to be starting this year. The initial class will only be about 200 students (though they plan to get to a school size of 2000 in five years) and she wants a larger school than that. The sports clubs are all centered on Stony Brook, an hours drive away, and to have something nearby she will have to be very proactive. Finally the basis of the program is a center for the study of the marine environment. I suspect that will be the core of their program for the first few years and she has made it clear that she is not interested in marine studies. She decided not to visit St. Mary's on her last tour for that reason.</p>

31

<p>Has no one mentioned Skidmore yet? Lovely location in Saratoga Springs, great equestrian program, offers environmental studies major.</p>

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<p>Hahahahahaha. The younger sib keeping a photo record. Whodathunkit?Excellent! Taking a "team approach" to all these visits has got to help. Do keep us posted on further developments.</p>

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<p>As to SUNY-ESF and its relationship to SU, we will have to look and decide. I attended a football crazy (public) university, with a large Greek scene and hardly noticed. Never attended a game or visited a frat. I was so caught up in my own world and studies it hardly mattered. She's a bit more observant of the rest of the world than I was, but on paper and the net ESF looks ideal for her interests. The main thing for her will be the ambiance of the clubs. If the SUs in the equestrian club, the western and east asian fencing clubs (she loves "Gladiator"), and the Indian dancing clubs (she also loves "Bride and Prejudice") are at all accepting, she will be in seventh heaven. The low SUNY tuition will also please us.</p>

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<h1>17 EnviroGuy</h1>

<p>I have worked with several people from Cornell and they have uniformly had good things to say about it. Cornell's size will be intimidating for D1, as the school has a population about that of our county. As a (largely) private university, I suspect there will be more support available for her there than at most public schools of the same size, but still...? The population of CALS is only 3000. Will any of the first year classes be CALS only (or primarily), so that she can get to know that smaller sub-community more rapidly? Also I know a woman who went to CALS a few decades ago (I think to study forestry), and then found herself frozen out of work in her field, because employers at that time thought she would be too weak for "mans work". She's not much smaller than my daughter. Are there any specialties she should avoid?</p>

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<h1>18 Naturally</h1>

<p>While I have focussed on east coast schools I have looked at some outside that region, primarily the Southwest and Pacific coast, particularly California. However to give good recommendations I would have to know more about you, i.e., your stats and what in particular you are looking for in terms of school size, cost, sub-field, and other aspect of the school. While not as popular as English, I think the majority of schools I have looked at have such majors in those fields in one form or another. </p>

<p>General guidelines. The biggest programs tend to be at the major land-grant colleges. They were largely created to provide education in those areas. As a whole such colleges are not typically considered strong academically, but those fields often are their strong points. Coastal colleges are often particularly strong in marine studies applications. The Rocky Mountain colleges tend to emphasize natural resources, mining in particular. The coasts emphasize Environmental Sciences/Studies, particularly preservation. Schools that own forests, e.g., Yale, or are located in forested regions have strong forestry programs (albeit graduate programs for Yale).</p>

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<h1>23 momrath</h1>

<p>I wish you would stop mentioning Williams. I have just revisited its web pages, the student clubs in particular, and I don't like how strongly I think it will appeal to her. The KAOS club, in particular, looks like just her cup of tea. I don't need another school to add to her list, particularly a private (expensive) one that is (preferably) an extreme reach. I hope that after our tour she decides that schools with tiny college towns are not of interest, otherwise we will have too many options to consider.</p>

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<h1>25 danhmom</h1>

<p>I early on suggested UNH with UVM to D1 and she discarded both of them. She eventually revisited UVM, but not UNH. I don't remember why. I am thinking more and more of visiting UVM on this trip. If we do and she likes it we may revisit UNH.</p>

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<h1>31 fireflyscout</h1>

<p>I briefly examined Skidmore when the Newsweek article came out, and discarded it because neither equestrian nor fencing clubs were listed on the sports club page. Revisiting, it turns out that it is one of the few colleges where Equestrian competition is considered a varsity sport, not a club sport. A plus for D1. The Environmental Studies program reads as if its pretty good. However it does lack a fencing club a significant minus for D1. It is also an expensive private college, and I think we have enough of those on our current list. We won't officially visit it. However I had already been thinking of staying overnight at Saratoga Springs for our visit to RPI as it is reputedly lovely and only half an hours drive away. Maybe we will take a brief glimpse of the campus while we are there.</p>

<p>I have now caught up with all the post by others so far.</p>

39

<p>nm, there's a lot in your daughter's resume that makes me think that she would like Williams too: Outdoorsy, athletic, multifaceted, environmentally concerned (not to mention her interest in Indian dance!). Williams likes kids who do more than one thing as they need participants for all of those clubs.
Winter Study is a wonderful point of differentiation and some of the environmental science offerings are especially appealing.</p>

<p>Personally, I think it would be less of a reach than Dartmouth -- or about equal -- but a lot would depend on how successful she is in getting her personality across in her application. </p>

<p>I've kind of lost track of her current list, but if she's still targeting Holyoke and Hamilton, then Williams fits well with that milieu. Need based financial aid at all of these privates would be about the same, initially, but it sometimes gets bumped up depending on how much they want you.</p>

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<h1>39 momrath</h1>

<p>Until this Sunday, after she has rested from her trip, it is my list and I am also losing track of whats on it.</p>

<p>What's worse about Williams is that it is one of the few schools that has tours and info sessions on Saturdays in the summer. We could visit it without giving up a visit to another school. But it probably involves getting up early, which we hate to do on a Saturday, and visiting six schools in a week might raise homicidal thoughts in family members.</p>

<p>As to D1's essay style, I have seen few of them this year. Before that her teachers were requiring highly structured styles (red light, green light?) that I think were easy to grade, but left little room for personal expression. D1 is an excellent conversationalist, and comes across well in class discussions and interviews, but I don't know if she can get her spontaneity and spirit onto paper.</p>